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Attack Syria or not?
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Absolutely not.
ReplyDeleteOh but hang on a second. Why would Americans want intervention? No Americans were hurt. And the Russians have dibs on their oil. But then again, it didn't involve you all with Afghanistan or Iraq, until you chose w vested interested to "intervene". Iraq would have fell to the Arab Spring.
DeleteThe government of Syria used Sarin gas on innocent civilians. More than 1,400 people, over 400 of them _children_, died, horrible, agonizing, convulsive deaths. 31 men went to the scene afterwards with video cameras, recording the resulting carnage for the world to see. All but one of them died of exposure to Sarin.
ReplyDeleteThat really happened.
When you repeat drivel like "America is not the world's poliveman," what you're really saying is, "I don't care about dead women and children. It's fine with me if it keeps happening. Just as long as we don't get involved."
Nobody thinks military involvement in Syria is good for the United States. There's nobody there who loves and will support us. When Assad falls whoever replaces him will still call us the great Satan, and back the guys who want to kill us. But we may be able to fix it so whoever it is is so afraid of the consequences of using Sarin that it never happens again.
I'd love it if there were another way. But nobody can come up with one! Medical aid? To whom? Delivered how? Diplomatic solution? We've spent two years trying diplomacy, and so far the result has been two million refugees and a Sarin attack on women and children. You want to try a peaceful solution, you can't get it by dealing with a guy who fires Sarin gas into suburbs. He's already violating international laws that have stood for a century! He's going to honor a deal with us now?
So don't proclaim your smug moral superiority while you sit back to watch children scream as blisters rise and convulsions rip through them like bodily earthquakes until they die screaming.
You are Kitty Genovese's neighbors, turning up the TV so you don't have to listen to her scream and beg for help, while a madman spends 20 minutes stabbing her to death, while you refuse to even call the police, because you don't want to get involved.
Be a coward if you want, but don't try do dress it up as virtue.
@JAS, tl;dr.
DeleteMr.Cool, you're an asshole.
DeleteThere's injustices all over the world. If you take it as your nations duty to solve everyone of them, your fighting a never-ending and thankless cause. You have enough problems in your own backyard, why not try solving them instead?
DeleteI'm all for saving children abroad, but what about all the school closures and funding cuts all over the lower income areas? I'd get to that before causing political unrest somewhere...
I have to say i agree with steen. I know, im shocked myself!
DeleteI kinda agree with sheen but this isn't as clear cut as yes or no. The rebels are not a single unified group and many have radical ideals and have also been accused of war crimes. Who is going to verify and secure the mass amounts of chemical weapons, etc.. Us, UK, etc has admitted they simply have no idea where its all stored. It is going to be similar to the massive ussr weapons proliferation that happened. So many other variables. The UN must take a stand or they lose all credibility. Its a sad state of affairs but without other people saying enough and joining, this will turn out horribly. We rushed to give the taliban weapons and we all know how that panned out.. js. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and mine is that this isn't a Syrian or American problem, its global and should be handled in that manner.
DeleteIm torn. I am apalled at whats happening. BUt theres horrifying atrocities taking place every minute of every day.what about africa? Genocide and rape? North korea? There are starving tortured kids in our own country that need help. Foster kids that are being starved beaten raped hrld prisoner in basements but the backlog of cases is too great to investogate becsuse. War mongers anf war profiteers want to spend time money and resources troops manpower we dont have on nation control. Its not our country.not our business. Not our right to walk in and boot a leader. Its up to the citizens to make police and run their country. Howd you feel if china invaded us because of our shortcomings? Would you welvome their well intenyionef help? Fuck no you wouldnt.
DeleteSheen, I love you. High five.
DeleteSure, why not? Our track record in Middle East military engagements is really top notch. What could possibly go wrong?
ReplyDeleteI'm sure any action there would be a.) inexpensive b.) of limited risk to our military troops c.) very limited in scope and duration d.) have a specific, well-defined, reasonable positive outcome.
cool cool cool You do realize that "tl;dr" is geek speak for "I'm a functionally illiterate moron who can't understand more than five words in a row," right?
ReplyDeleteSo, you must be in one of the military branches. Which one are you? Army, Air Force, Navy, Marines? You getting orders to go yet? You must be pretty stoked up about this new mission? How does your wife and kids feel about it? I'm assuming you've spent more than half your career in uniform during a time of war. So, that's 12 yrs of non-stop training, and being sent off to war, and then back, get the gear ready to go, train up again, and move out all over again. That's gotta suck! You and your family aren't burnt out over that nonsense yet? Wow! Most likely you're not. You're all, excited! "Yay! Lets do this, git er done!" Where do you find your energy?? Or are you a war virgin? Can't wait to pop that deployment cherry?!
DeleteSure, why not? Our track record in Middle East military engagements is really top notch. What could possibly go wrong?
ReplyDeleteThat.
@Drizzle...My thoughts EXACTLY.
ReplyDeleteOh, and by the way?
ReplyDeleteI'll laugh really hard at anyone who posts here how America should mind its own business, who later makes outraged comments about how, instead of posting about some horror for which he has no evidence and no legal standing, Enty should report the subject of the blind to the police.
When you're getting ready to type that, remember how when children are killed with nerve gas, you think that's nobody else's business.
So did you save the Kurds from Saddam? Remember when Saddam gassed the Kurds with a nerve agent, much like that, which ended up in Syria. Huh, now, you don't think an upstanding citizen like Saddam Hussein would get rid of his stock pile and give it to the Al Qaida rogue warriors he was welcoming into Iraq during that crazy hectic time in the beginning of that war, do you? Naw, he didnt like to share, especially if it made the US President look bad. And his sons were murdered in a firefight with well trained US soldiers. That would piss me off as a psycho father. Yea he needed to make the US look bad. I wonder if anyone fell for that mass murderer/rapist/torturer's games? No. You're too smart to be out witted by a once poor goat herder, from the wrong and smallest Tribe.
DeleteExactly. We didn't turn a blind eye to the Nazis, so why ignore this?
ReplyDeleteLol really?
DeleteSee people, schools get closed and this is the result.
Literary, i believe that is what we should have learned from WW 2. Interfere when people are being murdered.
DeleteUhm guys we actually DID ignore what the Nazis were doing. We didn't enter the war until Japan attacked us and we refused the kinderloft. Once we got in we went whole hog but we ignored a lot until then. Reading down now I see Merlin also pointed out this conveniently forgotten fact.
DeleteUnmmmmm, amuricaDID turn a blund eye to the Nazis and the Japanese in WWII in the beginning. And profiteered from This war for TWO years, UNTIL..... December, 2 years into the war, Pearl Fucking Harbour.
DeleteAnd look, Amurica's economy is FUCKED at the moment, you do need a good war to get back on track, like every other time.
DeleteFucking children & innocents dying.
Why would you, w the capacity to do so, help these people?
It's not like you can benefit.
No way, it will only make things worse, it they could target Assad I 'd say go for it and don't miss...
ReplyDelete@Hairy Knuckles, thanks. I totally repent now.
ReplyDeleteUmmm.. Laura?
ReplyDeletePlease check your history books.
We did ignore the Nazis. For years.
That being said, should we strike? Hell yes.
And let the Mossad handle shit for brains.
(For what it's worth, I'm a dyed in the wool liberal)
War gasses have been over the line for use against even uniformed military for a century. This isn't "injustices" this is a war crime against a civilian population.
ReplyDeleteYou want to put America's comfort ahead of the lives of innocent non-combatants who were killed in the most obscene way imaginable, and ahead of the lives of all those who will follow if Assad gets away with it, that's your prerogative.
But don't pretend you're being moral. You're just letting people die so you don't have to get involved.
Good point. In sure the innocent non-combatants that passed through Guatanamo agree with your moral stance.
DeleteWe've ignored the suffering, murder, child rape-torture-into child soldiers, In Africa, Asia. In North Korea people suffer by the millions, starving, lack of proper clothing, the hidden torture prisons, babies are born in there and never leave, children are ordered to murder their own parents over a crust of bread!
DeleteWe've ignored the millions butchered in Cambodia and Vietnam after we pulled out, 20 Million+ in Russia, still horrible awful tragedies occurring in between Thailand and Bhurma.
As I mentioned before, the African continent has been in turmoil for years. Somali pirates are still very troublesome. We have thousands of children dying daily in our own country from child abuse, neglect, sexual abuse, and suicide later from either a result of these earlier abuses, or current troubles and agonies. Children born into drug families that have no reasonable way to cope with children because of drugs, and without drugs, they are just as lost and overwhelmed, the kids still don't win.
DeleteNo one made you God and told you whom we should and should not help. We are one country! We are getting played like a fiddle by NA-ME. Where is the UN's stance? The UK voted to stay out of this mess, and I don't know if France is on board or not, but what will they provide? 3 aircraft & 150 men if it gets to ground troops. Great, they can make the crepes.
You, sir, do not know what you are talking about. This is an extremely dangerous game that if we enter, we will lose our young men and women. Syria is not our civil war, and none of our business. Enough troops; men, women and canine have perished. Even more are still in hospitals and VA centers all across America relearning how to eat, bath, walk, drive, catheterize themselves, have to get renovations made on their homes so they can go home to live. Far many more are so injured, they will never leave the hospital, some will live for decades in a vegetative state missing out on every child's milestone event.
DeleteBut, no. It's just easier for you to start up the War machine and begin the mangling of out troops process yet again, or shall I say, still. We do have Troops still deploying to Afghanistan with no end in sight. The draw down was made, but that just makes the troops over there more vulnerable to attacks when they come. They do come, the reporters have left for the most part, that's why you don't hear much about it. Men, women, and trained dogs are still getting killed, as they help the local population get needed services and medical care, while the insurgents fire at them. Just another day in paradise. But you're right, our military just hasn't given enough. Because, when you say "we" you are really saying the military that have worked there asses off the last 12 years. It's not your ass that's out on that line, it's my sons! It's my husbands! It's our friends! Our friends children! Have you ever woke up crying, because you knew that when you woke up, your husband would have taken part in a mission and while you were sleeping, he may have died, or his friends? But I can't call him up and ask. It doesn't work that way. Back at home, we always have to wait for them to call. Some jobs the spouses never get to talk to their spouses, until they walk through the door. They go an entire deployment knowing that no news is good news. But two uniformed men comi g out of a military vehicle, is heading to your neighbors door means the worst news ever. So, we make food and take it over, knowing well enough that they won't be eating for the next few days. Flags are lowered, the community is quieter, and a few days later we have the Church service, a rifle, a set of dog tags, and a helmet along with a set of boots, to signify the missing soldier. Roll call is made, the deceased soldiers name is called our, it's repeated, it's repeated one more time. This is when reality sets in for the family and the community. A good soldier never, ever, misses formation. He's gone. Then, the 21 gun salute. The loneliest, most solemn sound, as it's all synchronized so well, it sounds like one loud burst of gunfire, times three. Suddenly that family realizes they are a widow or widower, one less parent will never come home again, dreams of retirement and growing old are dashed forever. Or in many young families, a daddy never meets a newborn, a marriage will have never been lived together, except 30 days here, and week there. A mommy will never see her two year old go off to school, college, or get married. Parents lose children far too young, right out of college. Then they get their sons dog. A few months later their hearts are shattered again, the dog got out of the fenced in yard and was killed by a car.
You see, our pain for being The World's Police, is never ending. Less than 1% of the entire population has ever served in our nations military. Our military members are ready to go. Our families are in shambles.
DeleteWhy don't you go over in our place this time. You seem very eager to have our country do this job. Fine. Go do it! Take some like minded friends. It's be fun. You'll see what we have to deal with to access the benefits we are entitled to receive. Just because we are entitled and legally are allowed to receive these benefits, it rarely happens that way. Good luck to you. You'll need it. And fair warning, most of the government employees, not all, but most are not helpful and are extremely overworked. They are consistently 7 years behind, and that was prior to two wars starting. They haven't changed anything in 12 years time.
Well Dingle, based on that atrocious record, why WOULD amurica do anything? Ffs
DeleteSheen, this I quote from you,
Delete"But don't pretend you're being moral. You're just letting people die so you don't have to get involved."
Go to Section 60 and tell any one of the people there that very statement.
You, are the worst kind of blow hard hypocrite.
Are you lost? Have you not been able to find a socio-political blog to join? This is NOT the blog for these statements!
STOP badgering us with your propaganda. Last I checked, this is still a free country. So we can agree, disagree. However, NO ONE! Will ever tell me how I will think, feel, respond, or how I will believe or not believe. This is especially true with you.
Go join the military and be a pain in their asses for a change. Don't forget to pack your Word of the Day calendar.
It really boils down the question of whether one country should use force to help a group of people who are not their own citizens. Should force have been used to stop the African-on-African genocide in Rwanda, Sierre Leone or the Congo? What about the European-on-European ethnic killings in Kosovo? Should force have been used to stop the brutal European murders of the first residents of Australia, Canada, Mexico, or the United States?
ReplyDeleteOr is 'not our problem, jack' the best hope for peace on Earth?
What amazes me is that with all the killing technology the United States of America has now, we can't just send some sort of drone or genetic weapon to wipe out Assad personally.
Of course, that raises the question of who would replace him. It's a really good idea to think about that in advance, as the post-Saddam mess in Iraq demonstrates clearly.
Either way there will be no winners.. Assad is awful but that doesn't make the rebels saints. I think the UN needs to step in and resolve these issues. If they don't we will continue to fuel the idea that were ignorant imperial country trying to build an empire. The middle east is in shambles and throwing rockets at Syria will incite more anger in the Muslim world and will cause more casualties than it will prevent. This isn't like the holocaust, we had a clear idea of the enemy. This will not look good on anybody in the history books:(
ReplyDeleteMy thought would be to follow the international consensus on this, rather than to plunge in recklessly. The Arab nations are calling for action, and a consortium of France and the Arab states and the US would be potentially helpful. The US has made a mess of things in the past eleven years in the Middle East, though, so whatever we do, we have to remember we're going in hobbled by mistakes.
ReplyDeleteI think a huge part of the issue is the sentiment @Brian touched on with his comment. We invaded Afghanistan and Iraq for less of a reason than we'd have to invade Syria, but people are so weary of conflict in the Middle East that we're balking at the idea of starting another "needless" war. Unfortunately, unlike Iraq & Afghanistan, Syria isn't "needless". This is a time that intervention is called for, and we're so tired of our troops being World Police that no one can get behind it. We're the nation that cried "Weapon of Mass Destruction."
ReplyDeleteFor what it's worth - I do think we should go in, simply because in this situation is IS the right thing to do, despite our historical mishaps and current quandries. If we are in a position to help, we should do so.
JAS, this sums up my reaction to your posts.
ReplyDelete^ Peter, perfectly put
ReplyDelete@JAS just out of curiousity, have you served in the military? Fought in any of the wars in the past 21 years? Spouse of US military member?
ReplyDeleteHey high-minded people - where were you when this information about people being gassed was first reported...in January? Where was our leader then? For that matter, where were you when people were being killed with regular ole bullets and explosives? For another matter, where were you when this was happening in Africa? Iraq? (On a much much larger scale, by the way.) Sudden urgent moral imperative outrage syndrome is old and tired. Enough. If we go in there now (as opposed to a few years ago when we might have helped some people who could be helpful to us) we'll just kill more people, create more confusion, and ultimately help precisely no one who needs it. Except Oblamer and Obumble. The only reason for the sudden urgent moral imperative right now is to cover for your hero (not mine).
ReplyDeleteWhether you agree with their policies, he's the president of the United States of America.. Seriously, show some respect. Ps don't forget to vote:-P
DeleteOBlamer? Is there fresh teabag rhetoric in the pipeline? This is great stuff.
ReplyDeleteLet's all applaud for DewieTheBear, who not only doesn't give a shit about women and children dying horribly, as long as he doesn't have to miss an episode of "Keeping Up with the Kardashians" over it, but is too stupid to spell the words "I don't give a shit," so has to find a picture that says it for him.
ReplyDeleteHe certainly showed me!
Have a seat JAS , take it easy man,respectful political discourse is fine but turning on people for not being as outraged as you are and are just expressing themselves about the poor kids you keep endlessly raving and railing about is coming off as controlling confrontational and alienating for your point. We know its wrong,its tragedy,its awful,we get it.we all agree that its horrible and horrifying appalling. But dont demand we all agree with you about what to do about it and feel your exact same level of anger and outrage.let us all have our own feelings and opinions respectfully. Calling someone a kardashian lover here truly insulting.imho
DeleteI'm a liberal, but it's time to put the planes in the air when children are being hit with Sarin gas. There's no moral ambiguity about it.
ReplyDeleteAnd a round of applause for plokzy, who thinks being unjustly imprisoned is the same as being gassed with Sarin.
ReplyDeleteYeah, that's a killer argument, too.
rowan, my father flew B-26 Martin Marauders over Europe in WOrld War II, and served on the ground as a chaplain in Korea.
ReplyDeleteOne night in Korea, the front lines moved past a small outpost where he was officiating at religious ceremonies for a small American unit, and he, as ranking officer on-site, had to take command and lead the unit back to friendly territory. He and his men walked through thick fog, able to hear North Korean troops moving through the fog around them, to cross back over the battle line to safety.
So, no, neither I nor my wife currently serves, and no, that doesn't mean I put a low value on the lives of those who do.
But I don't much care if we lose some rockets and cruise missiles, which is all we're looking to put into harm's way, so it's a really bogus question.
So, what uniform exactly did YOU wear for your country?
Deletefirst, let's start with some facts, as inconvenient as they may be:
ReplyDelete- some one may have used a nerve agent in syria. who is unknown, as is the what. various reports show that the agent could have been sarin, but is entirely likely to be something else. assad is on the offensive, and pushing back the opposition, and after two years has no need to resort to chemical weapons, nor would he use it is such proximity to the capital unless the situation was completely out of hand -- and it's not. the main beneficiaries here are opposition forces, who have pushed the civil war back on to the front page. finally, the only "proof" we have is the word of the same government officials who swore blind for weeks on end that bengazi was just some naughty boys blowing off steam...
- as for the dead, to be callous here -- why is this 1,400 more special than the previous 100,000 that we have had no interest in protecting, defending, or mourning? so no, policeman or not, we haven't cared one bit bit about the deaths of men, women, and children, nor about the millions of refugees.
- saddam hussein used sarin - in a documented attack on a kurdish village in the 80's. somehow no-one else has gotten the message - nor are they afraid of the consequences.
- kitty genovese? really? that old saw -- the one where the facts are 180 degrees from the myth?
The road to Tehran runs through Damascus.
ReplyDeleteAll of JAS's cogent and thoughtful arguments considered, I'm still leaning towards no. This is a(n uncivilized) civil war. I'm not sure we should jump in, at least not before the UN is given a chance to resolve things.
ReplyDeleteThe innocent civilian argument is kind of moot when you consider that there are *always* innocent women and children (and men) in warfare. Can we guarantee innocents won't get hurt if we intervene? Not if history has taught us anything. This isn't a diss on our great military, it's just an observation that the more players, the bigger the fallout. Plug in any country's military, it's the same.
I think the UN should be involved before we (or anyone else) goes running in there. Reevaluate if that fails.
Musings on Meditation:
ReplyDeleteI'm all for facts.
Facts are, we do know that Sarin was used, and we do know that it was Assad's regime who used it. There's no doubt about that whatsoever. We know where the missiles were fired from -- Assad-held territory -- and where they were targeted -- civilian suburban area held by opposition forces. We know that government forces were ordered by the government to prepare for a chemical attack on that area, to wear gas masks and other protective gear, before it happened, and that no opposition forces received such orders.
1,400 people were killed, by their own government, using Sarin, in violation of all known international law and norms, and that known, proven use of Sarin by a government is what requires action.
Saddam Hussein did use war gasses, and should have been punished. We were wrong to tolerate it then, we would be wrong to tolerate it now. Is your position really that we should never get it right once we get it wrong?
And, yes, Kitty Genovese, and the facts of that case are exactly as I stated them. She spent twenty minutes in the courtyard of her apartment building screaming for help, pounding on doors, being pursued and stabbed by the man who eventually killed her, right there, while her neighbors refused to do anything to help, and later said that they turned up their TVs and pulled down their blinds because they didn't want to get involved.
If you don't, either, fine and dandy, but don't try to clothe that in some suit of moral superiority.
but I come here for gossip not to share my politics with all of you.
ReplyDelete^heh Btw how many of us strong opinionated political activists have written our state Senate or Congress on this issue? Mmkay, yeah me neither..
ReplyDeleteI have.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI like flapjacks!
ReplyDeletePlease, no.
ReplyDeleteI'm torn about it. What makes it so difficult is that there is no consistency. We pick and choose who we want to help and a lot of times it's based on how it affects us. The UN is useless in many situations, but we do have to deal with them. If the official results come back and determined that they used gas then yes, something should be done.
ReplyDeleteWhat is sad is that no one else wants to help. There should be others willing to help if law was broken. Otherwise, what's the point of having these laws? I understand no one wants to get involved because they are worried about another war, but how do you decided when to step in? Atrocities have to stop at some point and an outside force is usually the only one who will do it. Otherwise, it seems like a kid who likes to see how far he can get away with something. How far can we let things go?
@JAS: My maternal great-grandparents were BLOWN UP by "accidential friendly fire" during WW2 in Holland; My grandparents lived in Holland during Nazi suppression and when the country was destroyed, brought my mother to this country (legally) in the 1950s.
ReplyDeleteMy paternal grandfather served actively in the marines during WW2 AND Korean War, was told he was too old for Vietnam.
My family fought against Vietnam. Their close friends and family members died over there.
My husband was active military, served during Desert Storm and all the Serbia civil conflict (which we were involved in). My best friend and her husband served both Desert Storm, Serbia, Kuwaiti and Desert Shield. Direct family members served all the above AND Afghanistan.
I know about some of the horrors of poison gas attacks, the training and the sleepless nights from the nightmares. I lived with a chemical attack bag, with the 3 needles, in my closet. Watching him take it when the dreaded "phone call" occurs and him leaving with NO other words but goodbye and I love you, I call when I can.
I know of MANY military families still dealing with the damage that the Al Qaeda did and post military life compromised by their experiences. I know many who have lost limbs, suffer PTSD and physical illnesses, that our government swears was not from chemical attacks they were exposed to over in the Middle East (Gulf War Illness). Spouses who were affected by the illnesses that their military members brought home (male and female). Just like Agent Orange, its all fiction.
I will NOT support the side the Al Qaeda is on. Syria's civil war has the government against the rebels (and the Al Qaeda is supporting the rebels). Russia is stating that there is no evidence of chemical warfare. The UN has not reacted.
Our government claimed there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, when in truth, none were found. Do you truly believe all that you are being told on this issue and not just the propaganda?
Al Q'aida was a CIA FUNDED group that barely existed prior to Russia's attempt to take over Afghanistan. The FRI has publicly acknowledged that Osama Bin Laden had NOTHING to do with the 'attacks' on 9/11.
DeleteTime to read the history correctly. This crab in Syria is yet another false flag attempt to distract us all from the massive global financial take down. And to keep control of the Middle East til we all choke to death on the fumes of oil and gas.
War Is A Racket. We just keep sending our precious family members into the fray to be killed or maimed, and there is actually NO REASON.
Are you aware that Hitler was funded by the Brits, and our own oh-so-patriotic Bush Crime Family? That Dow Chemicals is A leading manufacturer of chemical weapons?
Please. Read what is EASILY available on the web.
Globalresearch.ca is an excellent place to start.
I honestly don't know what to think. On one hand international involvement is imperative in Syria but I've yet to see a successful intervention play out. I think the United Nations should get involved with the blessing and the backing of all the major world players (not just the US). Isn't this the reason the UN was created?
ReplyDelete@Jonathan Andrew Sheen - NO you do not know that. The rebels have chemical weapons provided by Saudi and Qatar [I live in Qatar, trust me, these guys are supporting the islamic rebels with LOADS of weapons]
ReplyDeleteAssad is currently on the rise, no need to start using chemical weapons. Let me remind you that the same Muslim Brotherhood killed their own people in Egypt to accuse the military of excess violence.
What you see on TV is not all there is to know.
And although Assad and his father before him have kept the Syrian people in despicable conditions, the situation we are facing has more to do with Syria having refused the passage of a gasline from Qatar and Saudi in 2009 than it has to do with religion or freedom.
Besides, if US bombs and Iran decides they want in, my ass is toast. So, unless your ass is on the line too, I would suggest you STFU and GTFO
Actually, the British sold chemical weapons components to the Assad govt. Look it up.
DeleteNO NO NO
ReplyDeletewww.corbettreport.com
@L: I totally agree with you. May you and your loved ones stay safe.
ReplyDelete@Jonathan Andrew Sheen - And in reference to the Kitty Genovese comments, here is the list of all the currently ongoing conflicts: list
ReplyDeleteif you want to be a good neighbor, you might want to start writing to your congressman because there are a few injustices to right..
I'm torn on this one too. On the one hand, I'm extremely liberal and hate the idea of going to war when it isn't necessary. On the other hand, I have relatives that died in the Holocaust - perhaps if the US had intervened sooner, they would have gotten to live happy, full lives.
ReplyDeleteAbsolutely not. We are not and should not get involved in a civil war. Nor should we act as Al Qaeda's air force. And those who say, but he gassed his people - were you saying the same thing when Saddam Hussein gassed thousands of innocent Kurds?
ReplyDelete@Rowan - thank you. I know it's stupid but the thing that worries me the most is what's going to happen to my pets. If the shit hits the fan either the embassies or the companies we work for will probably manage to get us out - but in an emergency evacuation there is no place for pets, so you are expected to just abandon them.. I am anxiously waiting to see what Congress decides. If they support the US intervention I will try to book immediately a flight to take my cats and my dog out of the country to stay with some friends - then I'll come back here.
ReplyDeleteWhat is happening in Syria, akin to what happened in Lebanon in the 80s, is a war that has been in the making for years and cannot be resolved until it plays out. It's devastating for the civilians and we all should help the refugees.. but I honestly do not see this ending before the various factions in this war just play it out till it's over.
Please pray for this thing not to become bigger and scarier than it already is
@SofiaB - what i meant is that Assad is not the only one with the chemical weapons..
ReplyDeleteThank you everyone, at least most everyone for your responses- very interesting to read, with an open mind.
ReplyDeleteNO, we should not go try and make it better. STAY OUT!
I personally am not sure I know enough about Syria to answer- though can someone please tell me why every Middle Eastern Country is fucked to the hilt?
There is so much rich History to be respected, and all I ever see on the news or read in the papers, or see being discussed on the internet is how FUCKED UP it is. FUCKED UP with a huge ass F.
I hope whatever road is taken, that the outcome is one of eventual stability.
Glad to see President Obama getting grilled, tossed and handed his lunch on a paper plate.
@L: That is not a stupid reason for concern. During evacuations, pets are sacrificed, families are forced to abandon them. This is extremely heartbreaking.
ReplyDeleteI am more inclined at this present moment to advice you to be proactive and get your pets out of there now, before all flights are compromised or full.
The US government knows that "the people" are against all participation, but when has that stopped the government in the past (see all of history)? I am saddened to say, that at this very moment, we are minutes from our government acquiescing to the president's demands.
If indeed Assad is using chemical warfare to attack civilians, I believe that the US should attempt to take out their stockpile as well as the armaments used to deliver the gas. The point is to show the world's bad guys that there are repercussions for using chemical warfare to attack civilians and thus influence them to not follow the lead of Assad.
ReplyDeleteThat said, I do not believe that we should involve ourselves in the civil war. Both sides have unclean hands. Potentially Assad could be toppled and an Al Queda puppet put in charge as Al Queda is closely aligned with the rebels.
"Jabhat al Nusra" AKA "Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant" AKA "Free Syrian Army" AKA "Al Qaeda" needs American help to overthrow Assad. Bomb him, and wait for more 9/11, Bombstons, Fort Hoods...
ReplyDeleteCivilians gassed (if this was Assad work) don't mean innocent people. The Bombston dudes were civilians, the 9-11 pilots were civilians...
ReplyDeleteChristine!- The answer to that question is ISRAEL. Call me an anti-Semite (to be more precise I am a rabid anti Zionist and anti Synagogue of Satan/Ashkenazi-ite, I'm fine with Semites) but we all know it's true. Admitting it out loud is another thing entirely. I think all Assad has done is ally with Russia and refuse to play ball with the SOS. Does anyone REALLY buy the BS our government is making up? Were any of you chickenhawks there in Syria to see the attack or are you relying on the media, who is wholly owned and controlled by a certain group of people that have a vested interest in Israel?
ReplyDeleteSyria is also in the Bible and when Damascus falls, it's the start of Armageddon. Believe in God, the Bible or not, it's not a chance I want to take.
Bad things happen everywhere every day and we are not the world police even though it's funny now all the Bushitler Iraq war protestors are gung ho to attack now that their guy is in office. I hate both parties equally, just find the hypocrisy amusing.
rowan:
ReplyDeleteYes, I believe that we're not just being fed propaganda:
This article pretty conclusively shows that Sarin was used, and it's documented not by Americans, but by locals on the ground, most of whom died of Sarin exposure as a result of documenting it.
Also, just by the way, I thank your family for their service to the country. I would not risk any of them out of a trivial concern, and I resent that some of them were put in harm's way without justification.
I don't resent that missiles were put in harm's way, and that's all that's being contemplated here.
L:
ReplyDeleteYes, we do know that. I'm sorry that it's inconvenient for you, but the evidence is clear and strong, and it's not simply "Well, only Assad has the weapons."
We know the place the missiles were fired from: It's Assad's. We know the place where they landed: It's opposition held. We know that Assad's forces knew that chemical weapons were going to be used, as they were ordered to wear protective gear. We know that opposition forces received no such orders, and took no such precautions.
Yes, we know that Assad's regime used Sarin against his own civilian population.
Quoting someone from above: Please. Read what is EASILY available on the web.
ReplyDeleteYeah cuz everything on the internet is unquestionably true.
Just don t go.
ReplyDeleteEven in intelligence circles, nobody knows exactly who s fighting against who and for what. Sending troops like that in the middle will not solve anything because nobody knows what the US army should be doing, but it will be misunderstood, manipulated and reviled.
To help the innocents, UN and US should instead focus and spend on helping refugees.
There are no good external solutions possibles in such tribal/religious clusterfucks, especially not from the Western world.
@Jonathan Andrew Sheen - we know that? the evidence is clear?
ReplyDeleteshow me the evidence. show me the proof - your word means nothing.
Besides this is beyond the point - want to stop another holocaust? go to Darfur.
why is the UN not intervening? Why is the US deciding on its own to bomb Syria?
ReplyDeleteWhy is Russia vetoing any proposal to intervene?
all the stories about saving innocent people and the need to respect the 1993 Chemical Weapons Convention are BS. It's all a matter of controlling who sells gas to Europe, gaining access to the Mediterranean sea, and having a plan B to continue the export of Hydrocarbons from the Gulf Countries should Iran block the Strait of Hormuz. Why is UAE not involved in supporting the rebels? because they have a couple of lovely oil and gas pipelines leading to Fujeira and away from Iranian hands and power.. Why suddenly Saudi and Qatar are so supportive of "the people"? Please bear in mind these two places are absolute kingdoms. No right to vote and immigration laws that basically make slavery legal. But they feel for the people in Syria who struggle under a tyrant... Right!!
Read this article
here
I very much agree. In todays complex world we have hopefully learned that you cant just believe what the news tells us.theres trillions of dollars at stake and billionaires pulling the strings. Dont allow your emotions to be manipulated by the corporate oil barons. No ones cared about darfur or the cingo. The two million that live and die on the streets each year un india. Its up to the u.n the last time i checked the world didnt vote for our government so how can we govern them? I support a quick clean in and out strike with un support. But when has war ever been quick and clean.we JUST brought troops home,now you're so eager to send those broken devastated limbless ptsd poverty stricken shells of human beings back to the scene of their worst nightmares? War is never simple. Or quick ir clean.if we had anywhere near the capability of doing any of those things dont you think we would have already in the rwo wars we are barely finishing already before you sign us up for a third? Id like to know how quickly youll be signing up for the service so you can put your outrage to good use.
DeleteNo.
ReplyDeleteNot
ReplyDeleteWhy does the US have to always use their resources, money and people to solve all of the world's problems?
Not one other country is on board with this-that should be a strong warning sign.
Nuke the entire Middle East. Everything below Turkey that is between the Red Sea and the Himalayas. Nothing but trouble makers.
ReplyDeleteSyria has had enough war, enough violence and enough killing and the people that will suffer the most are the Syrians that are in most need of help. Violence only begets violence and a military attack will only enrage the Assad regime even more to likely retaliate into more chemical weapons attacks. He needs to be deposed( and his gov't overthrown) and charged with war crimes and crimes against humanity but war is not the answer.The Syrians have suffered enough already but I agree the international community needs to do something, like perhaps sanctions, UN resolutions, etc.
ReplyDeleteAs part of a UN or other united initiative, yes, but on our own, no. We should not be the only country involved and it should be agreed upon and acted upon by all our allies.
ReplyDelete@L: arrange to get your pets out:
ReplyDeleteSenate foreign committee approved action against Syria.
Russia sends missile cruiser to Mediterranean.
The Drums of War have begun.
I am completely anti-war. I have signed many a petition and demonstrated in marches. But I do think that Syria cannot be reasoned with. I say get in fast, strike hard and get the hell out.
ReplyDeleteNo. Absolutely not. If war is needed use US political power to force United Nations to take action as a group of nations. There is no reason ever for any one nation to declare
ReplyDeletewar in the name of saving humans. This is why the UN was established.
Long time lurker here. As a service member I definitely think we should not interfere with Syria. I understand that there are terrible atrocities that are occuring daily in Syria, however I think it would be foolish for us to intervene. Perhaps my perspective is skewed and while I would gladly lay down my life to defend this country I don't want to die for Syria. People in the middle east have been fighting one another for a long time and the war in Iraq and Afghanistan won't change this, and us invading Syria is a temporary solution to a huge problem. The US cannot always be the one to draw up the sword on a moments notice to police the rest of the world. I think of all the aid we have given in money and weapons to Syria already and I know not all of it is in "good hands". I honestly think of the morale of troops who are in Afghanistan wondering why we are still there and now we are supposed to go to Syria. That's not exactly what I invisioned when I swore my fidelity and loyalty to this country.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteUnless you have any skin in the game, STFU. I have a son in the Marine Corps and a husband in Afghanistan. It's not our fight; what side are we on Assads or Al-Quaeda. There is no good out come for the US and we should not do it just to cover Mr. Fancy-Pants' redline bullshit that he never should have said in the first place. Our military is stretched too thin and moral is too low for another war that has no end-game.
ReplyDeleteYep.
ReplyDeleteThe way to prove you have power is to show it.
Just ask Saddam.
Oh wait, he's dead.
Ask his son's (you know, the one's who raped girls and killed them, only to feed them to pigs)
Oh wait, they are dead.
Just ask Osama.. you know I'll just stop with this.
Do it. I'm more shocked Obama is on board than anything. I can see cowboy George all over it. Obama? Not so much.
I'm a lover, not a fighter. However, nerve gas? Dead civilians? What if they start selling to terrorists? UN Humanitarian intervention. I'd vote here for the party that intervenes for fucks sake!
ReplyDeleteThis makes me fucking sick to my guts.
ReplyDeleteWhy should any of us give a fuck?
Don't support human rights
Don't recycle
If its not in your own backyard, strap on your consumerist feed bags and just look after yourself.
This is tragic.
Just to cheer everyone up:
ReplyDeletehttps://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NhjSzjoU7OQ&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DNhjSzjoU7OQ
Build a little bird house in your soul
ReplyDeleteSo it is just a- okay to kill 100,000 people with bullets, but damn, cross that red line and gas 1,000? It's war baby!
ReplyDeleteI supported the invasion of Iraq for all the reasons people here are giving for supporting the bombing of Syria. It's the same - it's exactly the same, except that the present Admin. claims we won't put boots on the ground - but Kerry won't promise not to, either.
ReplyDeleteAssad is no more brutal than Hussein, who used chemical weapons against the Kurds and imprisoned the children of his opponents, including toddlers (Scott Ritter personally witnessed these child jails but refused to discuss them, because he said he was trying to wage peace, not war.) Assad is no more inclined to sponsor terrorism abroad than was Hussein, who financed plenty of it. Their ideologies, to the extent they had any ideology beyond retaining absolute power no matter how many towers of corpses it took, were very similar. They were both Ba'athists. Granted, Pencil-Neck's daddy made Saddam look like a playground bully, but Pencil Neck is no worse than Hussein was.
We fucked up in Iraq - we fucked up very, very, very badly. And there is absolutely no evidence to support the idea -- and, in fact, much to refute it -- that this Admin can handle a Middle East intervention any better than the last one did. None.
There is evidence to suggest that the rebel forces - who, as others here point out, are not a monolithic force and include some really bad characters - have used CW themselves, perhaps accidentally.
Thre is no way to know what repercussions any bombings might have. We intervened in Libya - again, I was happy to see that freak gutted and tossed on the pyre -- and now it's a lawless Al Qaeda stronghold.
The Admin claims they're not aiming for regime change, but if Assad used CWs, then why the fuck WOULDN'T we want regime change? If it's bad enough to merit American intervention, then we might as well take him out b/c he'll just do it again. Plus, he has very solid ties to Iran and their very solidly funded and supported terrorist proxies worldwide. Syria has the potential to result in a kind of blowback that Iraq never did.
I'm still not sure if I think bombing Syria is a good idea. But I don't trust the Admin to do it properly or to follow through. I think the WH wants to do it so they don't look weak and vacillating and incompetent and over their heads - which they already do.
I simply cannot believe that the people who protested the Iraq war so vigorously and loudly for so long can then turn around and suggest we do the same. damn. thing. again, as if changing the party in the White House, or the individuals who constitute it, will make a difference.
It won't. It never does.
We should've done something - no, I don't know what - 18 or 24 months ago when this happened. I don't recall hearing much outrage or concern when Syria forces first began massacreing civilians. Back then, when secular groups were still influential and begging for our assistance, they got nothing. Now it looks like the jihadists are driving the rebel bus and they're attacking Christian churches.