Your Turn 2
In case the shark movie is not your thing, here is a space to talk about the George Zimmerman trial.
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Ah, like chum for trolls.
ReplyDeleteNo sale.
IMHO the state didn't prove their case for murder 2. I have no opinion regarding the incident that brought the case.
ReplyDeleteIt's a travesty for everyone! Too bad they had to make it political.
ReplyDeleteI don't think he's guilty of 2nd degree murder but think he deserves and should get manslaughter because his conduct and behavior was grossly inappropriate. Treyvon was totally innocent just walking home from the store when Zimmerman targeted him. Zimmerman's poor judgement and unwarranted actions had EVERYTHING to do with causing his unjustified death. Plus, George's story has a number of contradictions, he didn't have the permission of his Homeowners Association to be on patrol with a loaded concealed weapon, and he didn't identify himself to Treyvon.
ReplyDeleteI'm leaving this alone.
ReplyDeleteI don't think the state proved 2nd degree murder either, but it astounds me that in Florida they were allowed to add the manslaughter charge AFTER both sides had presented their cases. It doesn't seem fair to a defendant in any case. If the defense team knew he would be facing a manslaughter charge they could have argued against that too, but as it stood at the time their defendant was only facing the murder charge. I'm not saying either way whether I believe he is guilty of anything or not, just think it's an unfair rule - it doesn't happen in my state. Anyone else know about this where they're from?
ReplyDeleteI'm an attorney but not licensed in Florida. Typically, the State will charge the defendant with the highest crime it believes is supported by the facts and evidence, which in the case of a death is usually first degree murder. However, either party can request that the jury instructions include a "step instruction," so that the jury will consider the highest charge first and then move its way down if it doesn't think the State met its burden. For example, if a defendant is charged with first degree murder, the jury will consider whether the State proved beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant intentionally and with premeditation caused the death of the victim. If the jury finds that the State did not meet its burden with respect to proving premeditation, it will then move to the next step of considering whether the evidence fits the elements of second degree murder, which is usually defined as an intentional killing, sometimes with provocation but not necessarily premeditation. If the jury finds that the evidence does not support that crime, then they can move down to manslaughter, which is usually defined as an unintentional killing. So the State in the George Zimmerman case is not actually adding a charge, but rather, the jury is now permitted to consider what are called "lesser included offenses" in what Zimmerman was originally charged with. This means that the State tried to prove all of the elements of second degree murder, but if the jury concludes that the evidence does not support a finding that Zimmerman intentionally killed Martin, it could still convict him of manslaughter for recklessly causing Martin's death. Thus, the State does not have to prove any additional elements to establish manslaughter but it just means there wasn't enough evidence to support the higher crime of second degree murder. It's not likely that the defendant's defense would have changed had it known earlier than the jury would be allowed to consider manslaughter. Does that make sense?
Delete@kaydub, I work for an attorney. You guys don't like paragraph breaks!
DeleteBasically what she's saying is the prosecutors charge the highest crime they believe prosecutable, hoping that if it doesn't work out, the step-down process allows for a lesser charge but still means they get punished. It's a gamble that the prosecutors have to make: what's going to stick with the evidence we have? Juries are an unknown force in the judicial process, so allowing for manslaughter is a wild card.
I bet the jury is trying to decide between second degree murder (murder with indirect intent) and manslaughter (not intentional but reckless).
Zimmerman's lawyer presented evidence of him 'taking a black girl to prom' as evidence that he wasn't targeting Martin racially. Personally, I don't think he's a racist, just a moron who watched too many 'Death Wish' movies.
Only thing I ever shot with a gun was quail. I have killed 3 deer with vehicles though. Well, hopefully I killed the sumbitches. I didn't stop to check.
ReplyDeleteHaha Count I Deer hunt with my car too and of course didn't kill anything as a matter if fact that little bugger gave me the hoof before bounding away.
DeleteMe & my friend were just talking about this last nite. I'm not gonna give my opinion on what I think will happen, considering it is Florida, but we both did agree on what is most likely to happen.
ReplyDeleteJodi Arias on the other hand, we couldn't agree on what needs to happen to that bitch.
The wall-to-wall saturation coverage of the trial as a sporting event on every single news network is worthless tragedy porn, and I really wish news outfits would get out of that line of work.
ReplyDeleteIt actually isn't "worthless tragedy porn." The ruling that comes from this case will be a part of many civil rights and gun control issues in the future. It may be worthless as gossip (I agree) but what the jury says is going to be similar to the Rodney King riots.
DeleteI don't know him personally but I can't stand his smug face.
ReplyDeleteHe should never have gotten out that car, he should have listened to the police dispatcher, i think zimmerman went out that night with good intentions of helping to protect his community. Still a life has been lost under questionable circumstances and i think the jury will feel they have to find him guilty just to appease the public
ReplyDeleteI live in Fl, charges can be added although the judge did it at an odd time. Usually it happens at the very end. TBH I think the Manslaughter charge was added when it was because it is blatantly obvious that the prosecutor didn't make its case and already tensions are running high about racially motivated backlashes. People are already spreading threats about how if Zimmerman is acquitted there will be rioting in the streets all over Fl. Law enforcement are being told to be prepared to be called in for this reason.
ReplyDelete@Libby:
ReplyDeleteRound of applause for stating it so perfectly.
The intricatcites of the law becomes interesting. Proscecuters did not prove their case, they were lousy. I cant stand gavel to gavel in any triial because i am not that well versed in law that i wld know an aha! moment if i heard it.
ReplyDeleteI dont care if trayvon m kicked puppies, smoked dope or ran with a gang. You cant get out if your car and shoot someone because of what u think he may do. Now after he got out and they struggled, dont know what happened exactly. Except trayvon dead.
My husband watches the trial when he's off work. I catch bits and pieces, but I'm not really well versed in it.
ReplyDeleteWeather they find him guilty or not Zimmerman brought this on himself. He is NOT a police officer so he should have called in and let the police handled it. But noooooo, he had to be Billy Bada$$. Zimmerman was looking for trouble and now he's got it. RIP Trayvon.
ReplyDeleteIn order for him to be convicted of 2nd murder prosecution had to prove Zimmerman showed clear purpose, intent, ill will, or spite towards the victim. Manslaughter however can carry life in prison if he is convicted because he used a gun during the commission of the crime.
ReplyDeleteOoooooooooo...Enty gave ME a SPACE! I've made it to the big time. Reached the top, made the cut, topped the list--THANK YOU ENTY!!!!!
ReplyDeleteI think it's interesting that everything that applies to one applies to the other.
ReplyDeleteZ could have stayed in his truck, he could have just waited for the cops.
But M did not need to walk the length of a football field to go back to confront Z; he could have just went in to his dad's house and called the cops.
T never did call the cops; he called his friend, so I don't think he was that scared. Z did call the cops, implying he felt there was a need for help.
I do not blame T for confronting Z; again, the things that made Z suspicious (it was dark and rainy) made T equally suspicious of Z. Where I come from, if you follow someone, you're taking a chance you're gonna start a fight. I do not blame T at all, even though he, too, could have avoided the confrontation by not taking more than 4 minutes to walk back to where Z was. The distance it takes to walk over 4 minutes means Z was no longer following him.
It took him 4 and a half minutes to get back to where Z was waiting for the cops. If you're 4 minutes away from someone, I don't see how you feel threatened any more. And again, he didn't call the cops. He was not scared enough to do so, apparently, whereas Z felt there was a reason to.
I wouldn't have found T guilty if he had killed Z,either, though because if he did see the gun once they started fighting, I'm sure he was thinking he could get killed and doubled his efforts to disable Z.
But if a 200 lb man was sitting on my chest, having already broken my nose and my head was getting beat in to the sidewalk, I'd have shot him, too.
I have no idea what all the jury instructions say you have to consider in this type of case, though. I'd do my best to adhere to those guidelines, even if I didn't like the conclusion they brought me to.
Apparently me & Tammy have been the only one's to follow this case.
DeleteYou would think that people would be upset by a psychopath stalking and shooting innocent kids to death. Fox is overjoyed, though.
ReplyDeleteI like that Enty tries to start interesting, deep, conversations on highly charged, controversial issues. What's wrong with having a discussion about real things? Does that mean it's troll baiting? I like to read what people think about these kinds of things. The troll seems to be fed by anger and discord though, so maybe that's what folks are referring to.
ReplyDeleteBarton Fink said it best. +1 X a million
ReplyDeleteIt aint troll baiting Anna, it is an attempt to generate clicks. If you didn't see the #'s from reveal weekend, they were way off from years past. So now we get daily reveals and "Hm, this will drum up arguing and clicks" posts.
ReplyDeleteCount! I missed you!!! You probably didn't see my apology for being a sasy lass last night. You know it's just because I'm jealous of all the other fillies in the stable, right? <3
DeleteI think not, Warecat, but nice try at condescension.
ReplyDeleteReally Annoying Mouse? You were on Bartons dick plusing him like a million because he called Z a pychopathic stalker killer. You have no clue on wtf this trial is.
ReplyDeleteOr what "supposedly" happened that nite.
Tammy broke it down for you. I agreed with her, as in that was exactly what was being represented to me, during the trial.
Deadline Hollywood is reporting that the OWN network is giving LiLo her own reality show.
ReplyDeleteLilo show is only worth watching if it was on HBO or Showtime. Get the cursing, the drugs, the sloppiness and the sex and on there and it would be a ratings bonanza. Try and portray her as a human and you got a total flop.
ReplyDeleteI work in law (not a lawyer, enty or otherwise). Past experience tells that A. Somebody Died; B. Somebody's Gotta Pay For It. Both parties here are guilty, both had choices to make and both chose poorly. Z is going to have to pay the piper, not sure what the toll will be, since it is FL after all. At least no one ate anyone's face off.
ReplyDelete@Ann: I saw it and replied. Something along the lines of, "I'm sad you weren't being fiesty trying to earn a spankin."
ReplyDelete@Count: Maybe I'll work on earning a merciless beating today... xoxo
ReplyDelete@WareCat, I won't get into a debate with you, but George Zimmerman, who had applied to and was rejected by the police department, is a perfect example of why applicants are carefully screened and why cadets have to undergo rigorous training before being allowed in the field and encountering situations like the one that occurred the night Treyvon was killed. He has neither the instincts nor maturity to protect anybody - quite the opposite.
ReplyDelete@kaydub, makes sense to me, and thank you.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteWare and Tammy, I agree with you. The prosecution did not prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman was not acting in self defense at the moment of the shooting...PERIOD.
ReplyDeleteIf it was proven beyond a reasonable doubt, there would not be this much of a debate
@phoenix, yeah, I'm aware of that. But yet, he was allowed by Florida state to carry a hand gun, which eventually led to the death of a kid. So, hopefully after w/e outcome, FL has a stricter law against individuals owning guns.
ReplyDeleteIf anything I've learned from America recently, its that even 25 kids dying won't be enough to change gun laws, let alone one individually.
DeleteJaft, these children werent killed, they were murdered. And I dont know what it will take either, but you mention restricting guns in any way, and the men act like they are getting castrated. So inane.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDelete@kpist, I disagree. The prosecution proved:
ReplyDelete1. Zimmerman was armed and looking for trouble
2. He perused an innocent unarmed teenager for no reason.
3. He didn't identify himself to Treyvon.
Therefore, Treyvon acted in self defense and Zimmerman shot him dead because he was losing the fight.
---
@WareCat, totally agree the Wild West mentality of those opposed to more stringent gun control measures has to change. Zimmerman is the poster boy.
Due to all the mistakes made from the time of the shooting until now, no one will ever be able to say definitively what happened. This whole case has been one huge circus. The police on the scene made major mistakes, the ME made mistakes, the media blew things up to epic proportions, you had Spike Lee tweeting an elderly mans home address.....
ReplyDeleteZimmerman isn't a poster boy for gun control. Zimmerman is a poster boy that Neighborhood Watch, the kooks who were doing boarder patrol on their own, and the militia mental patients are all assholes.
ReplyDeleteI leave volunteer firefighters out, because they actually serve a good purpose. Sure their are some firebug loons, but mostly they just drink Coors Light and serve the community.
Full Disclosure: I don't care if he is guilty or not. I generally steer clear of arguing the TV trial, politics and religion. I did get sucked into the Arias trial, but only because she was hot and naked.
Does anyone want to talk about cheese?
ReplyDeleteGreat comments!
ReplyDeleteWondering why, and maybe this has been brought up:
1. More attention was not given to the fact that gz had mixed martial arts training, tm to the best of my knowledge did not. I think 18 months of that kind of training can possibly make a person over confident in their ability, coupled with his interest in law enforcement, particularly in light of his statement on an application of some sort that he ultimately wanted to "hunt fugitives".
2. Why do you need to carry a gun to go shopping at target?
Cyber, as for # 2, the answer you always get is because they can. So u say why carry it? And they say i have a constitional right to carry it. So you ask but why do you want to? And they say- well u get the idea.
DeleteSo true too bad you don't need to pass an iq test before being allowed to carry a gun.
DeleteThere once was a man from Nantucket...
ReplyDeletePepperjack
ReplyDeleteJarlsberg
Swiss
Top 3 cheeses for burgers and the order I'd do em in.
Yellow American > White American for a grilled cheese.
Sometimes Muenster on a Roast Beef Hoagie.
Real Mozzarella, not pizza cheese, fugazi crap, makes me chub up in more ways than one.
That is my whole routine on cheeses.
@Count: check out my comments on the Superman post. Let me know if I need to add more.
ReplyDeleteCrap, I almost forgot: Parmigiano-Reggiano FTW! You can take your block of pecorino-romano, turn that sumbitch sideways and shove it up your candy ass.
ReplyDeleteI'm probably the only Wop who hates cheese. That, seafood & vodka. If I smell any of those, I'll dry heave. So gross.
ReplyDeleteBlue Cheese
ReplyDeleteSharp Cheddar
Provolone
Reno, that's so cheesy! xoxo
Delete@Seahorse: Worst was the one that ran into the bed of my pick up, and went under the tire. Fuckin ass end of the truck (lil S10) musta come up off the ground 3'. I though I was gonna die.
ReplyDeleteCount, been there, done that. It's not as sexy as it sounds.
ReplyDeleteWhere was the uproar to ban rental trucks after OKC? Can we ban airplanes so we never have another 9/11?
ReplyDeleteNewsflash: if every gun on the planet disappeared tomorrow, you still wouldn't be safe. You would just have something else to fear .
Count! I take a day off from Congress and you get all political on me????
DeleteAfter OKC, renting vehicles required extra identification and proof of insurance, and a credit card instead of cash. After 9/11, boarding a plane required thorough checks of IDs and shoes and limits on "weapons" (fingernail clippers!) that could be brought on board. So NOT a "ban" but changes for security. But changes for security on gun ownership, such as longer waiting periods, more intense background checks, etc, get treated as if they were requests for an outright ban, retroactive ("they will come and take our guns away!"), which they are NOT.
DeleteI'm planning a run at Fuhrer in 2016. Pro Gun/Pro Abortion/Pro Death Penalty/Pro Weed/Anti Corporation platform.
ReplyDeleteThe party name will be the No More A-Holes party.
Our motto shall be: If we can't kill em or keep em from livin, we'll get em high enough to shut up.
Heil, Count! (If this isn't enough to get me banned from CDAN...Well, nothing makes sense anymore).
DeleteThey already have background checks to get a permit to own guns.
ReplyDeleteTo think that any legislation that make gun ownership more difficult is going to stem the tide of "gun violence" is ludicrous. Did prohibition work? How about the laws making pot, coke, smack, etc illegal, do they work?
OK, no outright ban, does needing a prescription keep people from abusing or getting addicted to Oxies or Adderall?
There is nothing you can do to protect society from lone lunatics like the a-hole who shot up that school. Nothing you mentioned (longer waits, etc) would have taken the gun out of his hands. We are not "safe" and never will be, no matter what they do with gun legislation.
Or have a baby.
ReplyDeleteTalk about the Zimmerman trial and the gun nuts come out. Whomever said this subject would bring in troll was right. And some of you'll are exhibiting trollish behavior. Such a shame. CDAN has officially scraped the bottom of the barrel.
ReplyDeleteTwo racist idiots got into a fight and one ended up dead. Big deal - this whole thing is stupid. Zimmerman shouldn't have gotten out of the car. Martin shouldn't have confronted Zimmerman. Two wrongs don't make a right. There are no heroes in this story and there are no victims. The media needs to stop exciting the stupid people.
ReplyDeleteHere we go, blaming guns again. People need guns to shop at Target if they live in a bad neighborhood, not all of us live in Portland or Seattle (white liberal utopias) and have to actually interact with the vibrant diversity you just post about online. If you are a woman especially, those vibrant youths love to rape errrythang, old white women are targeted constantly, not that the media ever reports it. Also if you have been raped or been the victim of violent crime you realize that it can happen to YOU, it isn't like a movie and people die. Channon Christian and Christopher Newsom are the reasons I carry not one, but multiple, guns. You do not have the right to disarm me or anyone else because of the actions of others and those of you who advocate it, I truly wish and pray you get raped and/or worse. Better you than someone else and you reap what you sow in this life. Since white men have abdicated their responsibilities to keep whites safe, we have to deal with diversity and that means being prepared in a way they understand. Of course not living around them you think they are "just like us" but they aren't. Too bad you can't be forced to live among them and see how long it takes til you start carrying. The riots here will show you, but you'll ignore the lesson you need to learn, then you'll wake up one day and it'll be the Turner Diaries. Fuck you anti gun twats, I truly hope you get the Channon and Christopher treatment.
ReplyDeleteDoesn't Portland or Seattle have a bunch of Somalian gangs, or am I confusing them with a story someone told me about Ottawa?
ReplyDeleteDoesn't Portland or Seattle have a bunch of Somalian gangs, or am I confusing them with a story someone told me about Ottawa?
ReplyDelete