According to a Harvard University Professor who presented a paper in Rome yesterday, a fragment of a Gospel written in Coptic Greek back in the 4th century quotes Jesus referring to his wife Mary. The fragment of papyrus was revealed yesterday and although it does not mean Jesus was married, the chances are good and the gospel in which he refers to his wife also talks about sexuality and other interesting topics that will probably be ignored. Although the Vatican news agency talks about the conference and the reports it likes, it chose to ignore the report about Jesus having a wife. Now, if it talked about priests and little boys then they would have been all over it.
Does everyone realize that there are tons and tons of writings but the church decides which to include while acting as if the discarded texts are pure worthless nonsense?
ReplyDeleteSo far, no riots...
ReplyDeleteYup, our current bible is all hand-picked testimony. Lots of inconvenient stuff left out.
ReplyDeleteStop with the cheap comments, Enty. Not every post about christianity has to be peppered with sarcastic (not even snarky) pedophilia comments
ReplyDeleteIt's not really Christianity, but the Catholics. Being a self proclaimed worst catholic ever I will NEVER let my sons be altar boys. Oh HELL no. I have heard of too many instances- even in my hometown my friends mom was attacked by the priest. Did anything happen to him- nope. Stayed the priest for years AND nothing was ever said, all swept under the rug. She was treated as a liar and she had the bruises to back it up. There is a LOT of cover up by the Vatican and by the Church.
DeleteMy husband was a clergy abuse victim. I know only too well of what you speak. His abuser (who was also his godfather and a close personal friend during his youth)confessed all after being caught again 20 some years later. My husband had little recall before. The church contacted him at work thru our local sherriffs department to let him know he was named on a "victims list". It was a nightmare! In the end after mediations,meetings,therapists he received a small settlement from Diocese named(others were involved but only one was made to pay up) and the church still goes on. Sick,vile,criminal. Issues were brought up all the money in the world could never repair. No prison time for offender as the church removed him anytime complaints arose.Enough said..
DeleteI've already logged my hours of hateful political talk for the week, so I'm staying out of this. Except to say, didn't a Coptic Christian also make the "Innocence of Muslims" video to incite Armageddon? What will those wacky kids think up next?
ReplyDeleteNo, the guy, Michael something? Is Jewish.
DeleteYes, Yes Yes....they edited to suit themselves, and def cut out women in order to keep them subservient.
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ReplyDeleteI never comment here, but you seriously don't think Jesus being married would be a big deal?? Maybe not for every christian, but for Catholics? It had better be a big deal, considering the way they've mandated the no sex, no spouse thing.
ReplyDeleteExactly lol. Sucks for them.
DeleteJust want to clarify that this thing isn't a Gospel (the Gospels are the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John).
ReplyDeleteAlso, even if Jesus was married, it wouldn't be that big a deal.
Also want to clarify that they did not cut women out of the Bible. If you actually read it there are plenty of women in leadership positions (i.e. the deconess Phoebe that Paul put in that position). People have manipulated and taken out of context certain passages of the Bible to say women are to be subservient.
That's not Jesus's fault, that's stupid people's fault.
Agree with Katie. I don't think Benedict is a pedophile. Gay? Yes. Pedophile? Nope.
ReplyDeleteI would be surprised if Jesus wasn't married. It would have been more strange for him to be a single man during his time.
ReplyDeleteThere is a Gospel according to Judas too. Many scholars believe Judas got a very bad rap.
And a gospel of Mary Magdaline...
DeleteWOW...just WOW...I have really enjoyed this site for quite some time now...probably 4 years??? But I just cannot continue. I'm just sick of it. I can't believe you would say something so insulting and derogatory about the Catholic Church. You may disagree with a lot of what they do, but for many of us, it is OUR church.
ReplyDeleteI fear for where our society is headed. Our own government apologizes for some idiodic low budget film and our president apolizes for us being free and successful. Yet people so freely and outspokenly bash the Catholic Church and Christians as a whole.
Sure-some people in the Catholic Church made a lot of mistakes-HUGE ones-and we as a church are paying for it. It outrages us. It infuriates us as Catholics. But thankfully, those things have been revealed and we can now find out what happened and bring justice for the victims.
Evil people infiltrate all kinds of institutions, especially those where they can have access to potential victims-churches, schools, scouting troops, summer camps, sports, you name it. Many even have children just so they can abuse them. Does this make all of those organizations evil? NO!
The Catholic Church (which is actually the people not the leadership) does a lot of good in the world too. They teach our children, they heal our sick, they feed the poor, etc...
I am proud to be a Catholic-I am not perfect by any stretch of the imagination. I am a sinner. I have harmed people. But I have God in my life and forgiveness in my heart. But I cannot stand by and participate in a blog that so brazenly spews such hatred and contempt for my Church.
Who are you Enty???
@ice, I judge all religions equally, including Islam. My dad is a priest so I grew up seeing the man behind the curtain like in the Wizard of Oz. it's disappointing for me but I have a sweet appreciation for good people in all religions who actually believe in love. Please stay and promote it. If you leave, they win. What all sides need is a healthy dialogue explaining the untruths we are fed so that we distance ourselves from the others.
DeleteAudrey, did the fabulous designer outfits for his bodyguards influence your suspicion at all? Those boys look like doormen for a stripclub on Planet Versace.
ReplyDeleteIt's interesting that this scholar does not believe Jesus was married to Mary Magdalene. I know "Miriam" was a common name for the time, but how many could there be?
ReplyDeleteApparently he has a half sister named Mary as well.. Saw it on a Nat. Geo. presentation once.
DeleteNot a big deal if true. I'm dubious about the authenticity of the fragment, but even if it's real, the 4th century was rife with weird gnostic takes on JC. Going by (often faulty) memory, I wanna say that that's around the time the Pope Clement and the Council of Nicea (sp?) picked and chose what was gonna be in the bible. There were lots of weird "heresies" and oddball Christian sects popping up like toadstools, and had been for a few hundred years, with their own screwy (and not-so-screwy) texts. That having been said, it really is fairly likely that Jesus did have a wife. As was pointed out in Holy Blood, Holy Grail (and subsequently kinda ripped off in The Da Vinci Code) an unmarried Rabbi in his 30s back in Jesus' time wouldn't have been very um kosher, ha ha. And since Barton is on here today, I guess I can look forward to being accused of trotting out Fox bullshit with my discussion of JC in 3...2...1...
ReplyDeleteExcellent post, Ice Angel, I completely agree with you.
ReplyDeleteJust want to clarity. Jesus being married wouldn't be a big deal when it comes to our understanding of Christianity. The important parts of it, like Jesus dying for our sins.
ReplyDeleteIt would be a big deal because it would change an understanding we had. But Jesus also never said it is bad to be married, so it wouldn't change any major tenant of Christianity.
That all being said, we don't know anything more about this piece of papyrus than what it apparently says. There is alot that goes into determining the validity of a piece of ancient work, and just translating it does not make it a true statement.
Shelly:
ReplyDeleteNot EVERY SINGLE CHURCH OR PRIEST is like that. I'm a catholic and went to catholic schools and did alter serving when I was young and nothing ever happened to me. Our priest in primary school was amazing, one of the most lovely people you could ever meet. Obviously I realise that sexual assualt has happened/happening in the church but it's a small group. I'm so over people dissing the entire religion because of some bad people.
NO religion or group or organisation, etc, is perfect.
Yes, I am aware of this fact- there have been a few priests that I have really enjoyed. I have never said they were all bad- I am saying I would not leave my small child alone with man for an hour at a time unsupervised. Would you? How well do you really know your priest? Have dinner with him? Hang out? Know his interests? I dont have that kind of a relationship with mine. A priest is virtually a stranger and strangers do not have alone time with my children regardless of sex and sexual preference.
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ReplyDeleteThank you Ice Angel!!!! Totally agree. And as another Catholic, I couldn't care less if Jesus was married or not. It's the message that matters.
ReplyDeleteAnd the uniforms for the Vatican Guard were designed by Michaelangelo.
I saw yesterday the Boy Scouts are in trouble because of covering up years and years of pedophilia. Shall we mock them as well?
As for altar boys - my brother was one during the '60s. He assures me he was never molested, and none of his friends were molested. You people who are so afraid to have your sons be altar boys - haven't you taught them how to tell if they're approached by a pedophile? Will you keep them out of the Boy Scouts? Out of a classroom with a male teacher?
It's the Catholic church, Penn State, Michael Jackson, and now The Boy Scouts. Lol
DeletePedophilia doesn't discriminate.
#arrogantatheists
ReplyDeleteJesus was a Cajun
ReplyDeleteI certainly hope so because the Saints need some help.
Delete@Ice Angel, I compete agree with you.
ReplyDeleteWatch 'Deliver Us From Evil'. Awesome award winning doco about the true story of the Catholic priest Oliver O'Grady about how he admitted to sexually abusing 25 kids. Must see!
ReplyDeleteSeriously, enty aka himmm,
ReplyDeleteAirs dirty laundry of dead ppl that can't defend themselves,
Basically identifies victims of sexual abuse,
And outs ppl - all for page views/money
BUT one joke about a church, and THAT'S the final straw?!?!!
Lolz
Reading more about this, I have to say that the evidence is kind of spotty and dodgy. "And Jesus said to them, my wife..." is the entirety of the evidence. This seems like poor "proof" of marriage, no?
ReplyDeleteShelly again:
ReplyDeleteWhy not just say you wouldn't let your child spend time with a man alone rather than being specific and saying priest?
When I did alter serving there was never a time when you were alone with the priest for an hour, that's ridiculous. The only time myself, another alter server or any other child was alone with our priest was during confession.
As a matter of fact, my mother was a child sexual assualt consellor when I was young and she would know about where things happen and with whom, but never once did she say anything about me not alter serving.
I feel that it is incredibly insulting to say rude remarks about priests because there are some really great ones out there.
Because when my son asked to be an altar boy that was the first thing to come to mind. I'm sure there a great priests out there and they do wonderful things. I am not willing to take that chance. I would be lying to deny that was my initial thought. I am a catholic and have always been. I do not find this insulting as it is true- there have been hundreds of children molested and then covered up. I'm glad they are doing something about this now, but it's too little too late- the church's reputation is tainted. The cover up is what is so scary. And yes it is sad that there are comments about all priests, but it's even sadder that SOME priest messed with innocents and then covered it up. It's a horrible situation.
DeleteI agree Ice Angel - thank you for your post! Enough Catholic bashing already! As a Catholic I wouldn't care if he was married.
ReplyDeleteShelly - why not say you wouldn't leave your kid alone with a coach? Jerry Sandusky.
ReplyDeleteNo kidding. I was think about him reading all the comments above.
Delete@ Barton - well, actually, it's his love of Prada and velvet shoes that got me thinking...;)
ReplyDeleteIt is sickening Catholics would be offended by snark, but not by their own religion molesting THOUSANDS of children... And for those saying its only a few priests, you're stupid. It was thousands of priests, and your own church leaders instructed Bishops as far back as 1997 to HIDE the abuse allegations.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2011/01/18/vativan-letter-sex-abuse-ireland.html
Those aren't "mistakes" - it's a way of life for the whole damn religion. But continue to be offended by snark - LOL
Let me just say that I look at the bible as nice stories. Most are parables and most are like someone said, from shady memories hundreds of years later. I don't really care what happened in Jesus' time. All I need to know is that Jesus was real and loves us. Married? Eh who cares? My fav is the story about him turning 7 loaves of bread and some fish into feeding a crowd of a thousand people. My dad explained that maybe Jesus spoke to the crowd and encouraged them to take food out that they were hiding and share with the crowd. That's all I need to hear. I don't need specifics on who married who. It's not a telenovela. Don't hide shit from needy people and do unto others. That's going to be the basis for the religion I'm starting where I'm the resident capitana
ReplyDeleteJesus being married would be a huge deal to the Vatican, they base their belief of priests and nuns being celibate and unmarried on it.
ReplyDeleteCan you imagine the costs to support families and loss of money when priests die and leave their estates to their families on the vatican. You know, like they used to in the middle ages, which is why they declared Jesus unmarried and celibate so they can stop the financial loses. Which it all was ever about in the first place.
Vatican will never acknowledge it, ever. They want the money for themselves.
Agreed. It's always about the $.
DeleteThank you Ice Angel
ReplyDeleteUpdate, still no riots!
ReplyDeleteThey actually don't base the fact that priests and nuns are celibate of Jesus not being married. Priests used to be able to marry, but that changed sometime later (I think in the 1200-1400s, but can't remember the exact time). It was based on some priests gathering wealth for their children, which became a problem, so the Church changed it to where they had to be celibate.
ReplyDelete@LauraAnne...um, what do Atheists have to do with anything and why would you come out of left field to attack them?
ReplyDelete@Mrsbear...
ReplyDeleteTrue but the debate about celebacy and marriage, especially within the Gnostic sect was going on well before the establishment of Catholicism and very likely prior to the selection of the books that eventually appeared as the new testament.
The Catholic Church is a cult just like Scientology. Also, I lived in Rome for years and the Church uses its status as a sovereign state in the middle of another country (Italy) to run drugs and prostitutes. I know because I dated an Italian police officer who shared with me the cops' frustrations over these depraved, sick Vatican priests who think they are above the law.
ReplyDeletePeople, you don't need to belong to ANY church to follow the teachings of Jesus, to be a good person, to have a nice afterlife, to give money to the poor, etc. don't you realize that you have been conned into believing that you do? The Catholic Church is a con and a scam just like Scientology.
Just because a person is anti religion does not make us atheists.
Anyone who is a Catholic needs to be deprogrammed like any other cult member.
Amen Sista! Hahahah
Delete@Agent**it
ReplyDeleteYou're hilarious :)
Please stay with this breaking news story and give us updates throughout the day, won't you? :)
In every other branch of Christianity, it doesn't matter if Jesus was married or if his wife was a disciple because in the end, it means nothing in terms of church doctrine. Ministers can marry and have families, women are able to be ministers and lead the church. But the Catholic Church is threatened by this because priests can't marry and women can't be priests expressly because of the example of Jesus in the Bible — a single man surrounded by only men as disciples. If he was actually married, that's a bombshell. Even without this document, there has been a push in the last decade to allow priests to marry because there aren't a whole lot of guys going into the priesthood anymore. It's actually at a crisis point in terms of the number of young priests in the system. But the Vatican is dead set against this change. To the Catholics here who say they don't mind if Jesus was married — are you open to priests being married? Most Catholics I know are in support of this and I'm just curious about your feelings.
ReplyDeleteYes, I am very open to this. I think it would benefit the community of the church and make it more like a family.
Delete@Mitten Fluffy
ReplyDeleteYou can't compare Catholicism to Scientology. Scientology was started by a Science Fiction writer who actually said "the easiest way to make money is to invent a religion."
No matter what you allege about priests in the Catholic Faith, they are people, they aren't the Faith, and they cannot be compared to a cult, especially Scientology.
so its okay to be on a gossip site speculating about scandalous news about celebs, but point out something that has been WELL DOCUMENTED (priests abusing boys), then that makes you leave ??
ReplyDeleteSee this is what PEEVES me about religion- people who CHOOSE when to be religious and when not to be.....then act sanctimonious about it to others.
What does your religion say about gossip, mocking others, judging others based on pictures and speculation? Cause thats what gossip sites do EVERY day - so if it offends you to mention something TRUE about your religion perhaps you need to hang out in a place that meets your values........
Religious beliefs are responsible for 99% of all conflicts in the world. Perhaps more tolerance is needed instead of righteous indignation JMO
Oh, oh! I saw this movie! The DaVinci Code! Or was it The Last Temptation of Christ? Regardless, it's not really news. This has been out there for a long time, but the Vatican has worked to suppress the information fearing it could harm Catholicism.
ReplyDeleteReligion also motivates people to do good. Almost every hospital I've ever seen has been affiliated with a mainstream faith of some type, whether it's Sinai in Miami or the hundreds of Catholic hospitals worldwide. Religion also motivates many people to do good things, or to work on spiritual growth, or to love one another. The Islamic and Jewish and Christian people I've worked with over my long lifetime have often been inspiring hardworking morally motivated people -- As long as religion stays out of politics, it can be a fairly positive thing, I believe. There are still a lot of good jokes to be told about religion, too. The best jokes activate some kind of defensiveness or feel transgressive, so that's why I think people turn to pedophilia jokes as a way to get the fire burning.
ReplyDeletePretty sure the Soviet Union was an atheistic country during the Cold War. Also, Pretty sure WW I, WW II, Vietnam War, Korean War, French Revolution, American Revolution, Civil War, just to name a few, weren't motivated by religion.
ReplyDeleteBut just throw the 99% "statistic" out there...
None if those wars were fought in the name of atheism though. Most conflicts, throughout history, have used religion as the primary reason/motivator. The conflicts you mentioned are A:only 7....a very very small amount measured against history of the world and B: all fairly modern, with the exception of the revolutions, which are fought usually because of repression (and religion was a factor in the american revolution that's why people came here in the first place was to have freedom of religion), all those other wars have had other reasons/motivations because we created a separation between religion and government here so that couldn't be used as the reason for conflict in this country. Just because we can't use religion as a reason to go to war doesn't mean it wasn't a factor in these conflicts. During the cold war, for example, we decided to add god to money to prove we weren't communists (Even though communists didn't really care and many communists still were religious)...so even when its not a reason for war its used as a tool in war.
Deleteoh damn! i just had to stop watching the breaking bad season 4 finale (which is awesome btw!) to keep reading this. way more entertaining!
ReplyDeletei think all religion is bullshit to be honest so i dont really care. was jesus married? did he actually exist? who knows, but it is a fact that some (not ALL) priests have molested little boys. i know i wont be taking my future kids (if i have any) to church or let them be alter boys for sure.
say what you want about crazy Catholics but at least they're not out rioting trying to kill jews/muslims for there blasphemous comments.
I actually think this is a FASCINATING discovery that much more humanizes the man. It seems to me that this would make Jesus' role as Savior to a much more relatable level, and all the more believable--you know, if you're looking to spread his word and save souls and such.
ReplyDeleteI cannot wait until they find out he had kids. Wouldn't THAT blow things up big time?
I love archeology.
Topper Madison said...
ReplyDelete"I cannot wait until they find out he had kids."
---------------------
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jesus_Family_Tomb
ALL religions began as cults. We, as a society, only call them religions when they become mainstream. Under that proviso, it is perfectly fair to lump Scientology in with "religion", no matter how whacky it may be.
ReplyDeleteAnd quite frankly, when you are on the outside looking in, the basis of all religions seems rather whacky. Christianity basis its beliefs on the life and teachings of a guy that supposedly walked on water, became "undead" and claimed to be both God and God's son? Um, our society vilified David Koresh for saying the exact same thing.
*bases (the second use of "basis", not the first)
ReplyDeleteI agree with Barton. It's not religion that causes violence, unrest and wars. It's intolerance of other religions/peoples/customs/norms. Only when we, and when I say "we" I mean all of humanity, accept, tolerate and respect everyone else's beliefs, will there be peace. And then... some government wanting power will come and fuck it all up.
ReplyDeleteI just can't with Entelle's trolling today...smh...
ReplyDelete@ Barton I feel like I maxed out my religious/political talk for the week.
Sorry I Can't help but do this...@Agent**it you're a little late for that, those riots happened during the inquisitions. I heard it was in a spectacular fashion!
Clarification of my post:
ReplyDelete1.) As a Catholic, I am ashamed, outraged and completely intollerant of the abuse suffered at the hands of monsters posing as Catholic priests. I also have absolute contempt for those who could cover it up.
2.) I believe I said that I wasn't perfect. I am on a gossip site and probably shouldn't. I also had pre-marital sex, break a couple of the commandments on a regular basis, etc...
3.) As a person, I am tolerant of others' views on religion and politics. I would never call a person names or ridicult another's religious beliefs-whether they be Catholic, Muslim, Jewish, etc...or even if they are atheists. To each their own.
4.) I do not believe in every Church doctrine. I am not a robot. However, the Catholic Church has made a more positive impact on my life than anything else despite it's faults.
5.) I would like someone to answer me the following question:
Why is it completely unacceptable and bigotted to use anti-Semitic language or to bash the Muslim faith-yet it is completely socially acceptable to bash Christianity, Catholocism, etc...???
And please don't give me the cases of priests and pedophilia. Horrible, horrible, horrible...but it happens everywhere, it's been covered up in lots of places, and times and menalities are changing.
So why?
Its not. Everyone is bashed equally, Christians are just hypersensitive to it because for so long they have been kept in a bubble and the only ones allowed to do the bashing. Also its not about bashing, but about calling you out on your wrongs and hypocrisies. Hundreds of children have been abused by the Catholic church and nothing has been done about it. That is a fact, if you see stating that fact as bashing take it up with you catholic church. I also call out and "bash" how Muslims treat woman, the Westboro baptist church, and any other archaic ridiculous beliefs with no place in an intelligent modern society.Christians are not under attack any more or less than other religions, they just aren't used to being called out on their bs so they whine more, and in this country they are the majority so you hear about it more often.
Delete@Ice Angel
ReplyDeleteThank you.
Ice Angel:
ReplyDelete1. Some of my best friends are Catholic or have been raised as Catholics. I think it's a fascinating and wonderful religion, full of history and a great deal of faith. My son goes to a Catholic university and my partner went to a Catholic high school. However, when you say, "I...have absolute contempt for those who..cover it up," you are talking about some of the people in the highest reaches of the church. The corruption in the upper echelons of the church is legendary, and many people believe that it permeates other levels of the church, resulting in cover ups of many kinds of abuses, including sexual.
2. You aren't perfect. I am not either. Whew.
3. I was raised an atheist. I am somewhere between Judaism and Buddhism now. However, when you write, "I would never call a person names or ridicule another's religious beliefs...whether they be Catholic, Muslim, Jewish, etc...or even if they are atheists," there is an implied derogatory comment regarding atheists in there. Imagine saying, "I would never ridicule someone who was handicapped or blind, or even Jewish.." It's that "or even" that makes it sound as if atheists beliefs are less valid than your own. Just an FYI. (Because those of us who are atheists/were raised as atheists have feelings too.
:-)
4. I believe that the Catholic church has made amazing differences in people's lives, and I'm glad that it has made that difference for you.
5. See number 1. It isn't about pedophilia ALONE. It's also about the cover-up, and the sense that the MEN who run the Catholic church (not God or the doctrine of the church) have a sense of entitlement that creates a power dynamic that encourages corruption, deceit and cover ups. I don't think that Muslim or Jews or born again Christians are immune from criticism; right now, I think that being a Muslim in this country is probably one of the most dangerous things to admit aloud. What people object to in the Catholic church is the STRUCTURE that has been imposed by MAN but which is purported (by the church) to be derived from God.
All of that said, if I were a Christian, I would become a Catholic. As an organization, their devotion to service and to intellectual inquiry moves me deeply. There are few religions that can boast of their service in that way ( although Seventh Day Adventists and Judaism also come to mind). It is impossible to run any religious organization without human influence ( I know--my partner is also ED of a religious congregation)--and the Catholic church's unwillingness to admit that HUMANS are making decisions, not God, infuriates many of us.
I am thinking right now of the Catholic Church's recent smackdown of American nuns. They had the audacity to question doctrinal beliefs (such as those surrounding birth control and homosexuality) and received a strong rebuke from the Vatican, as well as a dictate that they not only cease and desist, but that a priest would be put in charge of their organization. The misogyny in the church repels many of us, and that is only one example. Here's a link to a news article regarding the conflict between the nuns and the Vatican, if you don't know about it already. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/29/us/us-nuns-weigh-response-to-scathing-vatican-critique.html?pagewanted=all
@Ice Angel. Great post :) & here's a similar question: why does one hardly ever hear of an Atheist criticizing Buddhism, Islam, Judaism, etc? I myself, during an entire lifetime of hanging out with weirdos, eccentrics, misfits and iconoclasts, have NEVER encountered an Atheist doing so.
ReplyDeleteBut in answer to YOUR question, it is a matter of double standards. Which is what life is all about. At some point in life (usually when we are very young), we are told "Life's Not Fair." Truer words were never spoken.
The problem is that some people try to argue the point: they will very vociferously claim that it's not fair that THEIR life's not fair. Even while (sometimes in the very same breath) also telling some other group that it's totally fair that THAT group's life isn't fair.
I would have no problem with all with the snark, hate and criticism that routinely gets directed at Christianity, if there weren't so many people shouting that it's TOTALLY NOT FAIR to throw snark, hate or criticism any other religion. Try doing so towards Islam, and your an Islamophobe. Try doing so towards Judaism and you're Anti-Semitic. The double standard is absurd. But it is okay, or not okay, depending on which side of the "standard" one is on.
@GladysKravitz - I stand with Ice Angel and I also found your post to be thoughtful and reasoned. Those who blindly condemn the Catholic Church are no better than those who condemn Islam. And as someone above (I forget who) said, it's not religious differences but religious intolerance that causes problems. Every religion, like every other group of people (doctors, democrats and republicans, baseball players, blacks and whites and all other races, sales clerks, the list goes on and on) have bad members. The trick is to eliminate them. One problem with the Catholic Church is that because it is over 2000 years old, they tend to change more slowly. The popes in the 13th (or whatever) didn't foresee the internet and other mass media. Changes that used to take hundreds of years, we now expect (rightfully) to happen much more quickly. And in a lot of cases, it's going to take the dying out of the older people to effect change. You find a racist or misogynist in their 80s, they're not going to change. You have to wait for them to die. I don't mean to sound cruel, waiting for some to die, but it's true.
ReplyDeleteAgent**it, Need update on the Christian riot situation, please.
ReplyDeleteIceAngel, do NOT feel like you have to justify your belief to anyone. People who focus on the perv priests, like pervs don't exist throughout society, to justify their abandonment of Christianity are idiots and/or assholes. If they're that bothered about pedophiles why are they on an entertainment industry gossip site? The entertainment industry has been molesting children for profit and covering it up for decades. At least the Church didn't make money off the kids. Similarly, people who claim that religion is the root of evil are idiots. If people didn't have religion to fight over they'd find something else. Duh. It's the nature of the beast, it's the humanity. Religion is just an excuse, kind of like that recently obscure video about Mohammed that was released back in July but somehow didn't inspire riots and mayhem and death until the totally coincidental and entirely spontaneous and not-at-all-pre-planned date of 9/11.
I love Bible as History stuff so this finding is interesting. There are a lot of gospels that were written centuries after the death of Jesus. The books of the Bible were assembled in the 300s after Constantine's conversion. Constantine wanted stuff organized and clarified. This writing is from the 4th century so it may be purposely written to contradict and undermine the chosen books of the Bible rather than to address the actual teachings and life of Jesus Christ. Christians started fighting amongst themselves pretty much immediately once they had power. (See my point above.)
when did this post become a referendum on being Catholic, or being religious? It's about a news story, and the unfortunate way the Vatican ignores anything that might put it in a bad light. That is NOT anti-Catholic. Relax, peeps.
ReplyDeleteIt's the 21st century, no?.
ReplyDeleteUpdate,France announced Wednesday it will close 20 embassies across the Muslim world on Friday after French weekly Charlie Hebdo published cartoons of the Prophet Mohammed naked.
@Agent**It: I can't help but think about the events that led up to WWI: it started over some fairly minor shit like this, too. The royal families of Europe at the time, who were all related to one another anyway, figured "eh, this won't last long, no big deal" and next thing you know Brad Pitt and Kirk Douglas are trying to outrun clouds of Mustard Gas. Maybe this will be the start of a New Crusade. World War C, perhaps? It'll certainly boost the economy :)
ReplyDeleteThomas, somebody, somewhere will make money. I doubt it will be me:)
ReplyDeleteI know those were only 7. That's why I said they were examples. I also never said they were motivated by athiesm. They were motivated by wanting land, power, ect. They weren't based on religion. I'm not saying there haven't been conflict in the name of religion, I'm just saying they didn't account for 99% of conflict throughout history. It isn't fair to blame religion for everything that has every happened in the world.
ReplyDeleteAnd if you want to go non-modern, look at the war of the roses, most of the wars in England before the break with Rome, napolean going around conquering Europe, ect. Again, those aren't ALL the examples, but they are some. Religion was not the primary motivator in those conflicts.
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ReplyDeleteWow...I am really impressed with a lot of the responses. Really good stuff.
ReplyDelete@Gladys-what a great post and thanks so much for all of your insightful words. It is quite obvious that you do not take everything at face value and look to find the deeper meaning of things. The world is not black and white and shouldn't be looked at that way.
As far as my inference on atheists, it wasn't meant as a negative inference on atheists as much as an inference based upon what I see as often preceonceived notions of what Christians and/or Catholics are like.
And no to those who say I should abandon my faith because of what some church leaders have chosen to do, or not do in some cases. I find that it will serve my faith and that of my fellow Catholics, to remain within the church and work to improve things internally. The Church is in itself not evil. Any person can walk into any church and commit a crime. It is the individual-not the church itself (which is its faithful) that is responsible for those actions.
That said, you can find fault in just about any institution in the world of any kind. Are their corrupt republicans? Sure. Are their corrupt democrats? Sure. Does that mean everyone belonging to those parties are corrupt? NO. Do we try our hardest to vote for those we feel we can trust the best. YES. That's about all we can do.
But the fact of the matter is manners. We are constantly being told over and over that we must mind our manners with our speech as to not offend people. Well why does that not stand for Christians as well?
In closing-I must tell you that a very close family friend of mine, who also happens to be a Catholic priest, is one of the 3 men who initiated this entire investigation of the Catholic priests in the very first place. He has been on all of the news shows and we are extremely proud of his bravery in the face of tremendous pressure. He was on track for Cardinal-hood until he revealed his findings and turned this whole thing public. Not a popular guy within the Catholic Church. However, he is a Catholic and a Christian. A good Catholic. A good Christian. A good person.
He has worked with the victims and their families, he has counseled them and encouraged them throughout these terrible ordeals they have gone through.
So I don't need a lesson in what those in the Catholic Church leadership can and have done. It is made of people and they make mistakes. Even the pope can make mistakes (although his edicts are considered the divine inspiration of God) he isn't perfect and he makes mistakes every day, as we all do. He is just a man like everyone else.
That said-we are supposed to be a civilized society and those of you who continue to rightfully call upon those who use derogatory and insulting language against those who are different from themselves should rethink your stance when it comes to those of different faiths.
Coexist folks. Tolerance. Peach.
Who knows what really happened? The teachings of Jc are very diff from organized religion, which i despise. Anyhoo, i think its funny. Picture it: jesus , at home with the wife. " that well isnt giving me clean water, and the buckets leaking. Cant u fix anything? Your father was a caroenter and we hv to live like this?". "enough, wife, i do the best i can!". " really?", asks wife, "really? Out til all hours with your possee?". ". Ive told you a thousand times, they are my apostles, not my possee!". "oh, says sife," do u really think i think u out til all hours preaching? And what is this crap about loaves and fishes? And whose wedding were u at, without me, i might add? And why did ur mother drag u to lazurus house? He was dead for your fathers sake!". JC- " thats enough! Your smothering me! Im hitting the riad with my boys, see ya when i see ya!". " good! Go! And take the leaky ass bucket with you!"
ReplyDeleteWhat are you all hating on Enty for? He just reporting on the story. He's not going Bill Maher and saying, "see, so religon is bogus." Sure, he made some cracks about Priests, but who hasn't?
ReplyDeleteJust because the gospels don't mention Jesus was married, doesn't mean he wasn't. Only two of the disciples wives were mentioned. Were the rest acestic bachelors?
And check out the Coptic texts that were left out of the bible by the early church fathers.
The point is, we just don't know everything about Jesus' life and we should not close our minds to new information.
There's a guy in San Jose who does awesome religious history, his name escapes me at the moment, he has said thatMary Magdalene was not a hooker, she was from a fairly wealthy family, and that Jesus had brothers, one of them was one of the 12 apostles. I think he has also said that Jesus was married.
ReplyDeleteRemember years ago when someone did a drawing of what Jesus probably looked like based on anthropology and historical record, and all the "western" Christians were pissed because he was olive skinned, brown eyed, and had kinky hair? I laughed for days about that.
Thankyou @ Ice Angel.
ReplyDeleteIs "Thomas" possibly Mr "Profane?" The writing style seems really familiar and Thomas seemed to start posting a lot after B.'s exit (though B. Profane has popped up a couple times since his "I know who Enty is" embarrassment). Just curious....
ReplyDeleteI'm convinced that the writer(s) of this site post something to rile up a specific demographic. He/She/They have written posts regarding South Asians, LGBTs, Catholics, Christians, gun owners, atheists, black people, etc.
ReplyDeleteGood job on getting page views, maybe you can post an ad in between comments to get extra cash?
IceAngel, thank you for explaining why you contine to attend church. I myself am an atheist but understand that millions of people receive great comfort from their faith. What I couldn't understand was why they stayed in institutions that covered up child sexual abuse. I feel that way about any institution that has been tainted, scouts etc.
ReplyDeleteIf I may ask a specific question, do you not feel that by attending church and putting money in the plate that is a sign to the leaders that there is an unspoken acceptance of the way they have handled the child sexual abuse, or have you spoken out against that personally? I hope I haven't offended you by asking, I am truly trying to understand continuing to attend the institution when you have faith and a bible and could still be Christian without supporting the structure.
@MLE- Nope, "Thomas" is "Thomas." I've been Thomas since first commenting on this site (which, admittedly, was only a few months ago.) Incidentally, I'd be interested in learning the details of B. Profane's "embarrassment", as you put it...
ReplyDeleteWhat would really be funny (and random), is if one day we decide that Val Kilmer is the Son of God and we start worshipping him instead.
ReplyDeleteIn certain Spanish countries, when you sneeze, they say "Jesus" as the blessing.
So then we could say "Val Kilmer" when you sneeze or "Val H. Christ!" or "Val, Mary & Joseph."
Because really...who knows.;)
I'm no religious apologist (obvs) however, I would postulate that all wars are fought in pursuit of land. Sure, the surface reasoning is varied (try to get people riled up with, "more land!" cry), but they are ALL fought over the acquisition of land and/or the riches that said land contains.
ReplyDeleteI've said it before: religion isn't the problem, assholes are the problem, and assholes are everywhere.
ReplyDeleteI think religion is just so people can feel they belong to something. I don't have that need, but I don't really care if you do or not - that's your business.
I don't like it when people get all up in my face about religion, how I should join theirs etc etc. I'm an adult and can make my own decisions, thank you. And I also don't like how various groups (not just religious) get all involved in stuff that isn't really anything to do with them. Like gay marriage. What business is that of anyone who isn't gay? I wouldn't like anyone telling me who I could marry. Plus, I'm pretty sure the bible says 'judge not lest ye be judged' or similar - I read that as people should worry about themselves rather than worrying about anyone else's activities. Let the big guy (if he exists) sort all that out at the end - its not your call group!
Peace
ReplyDeleteThis is news? Latin America is teeming with guys named Jesus who are married.
ReplyDelete@feraltart-Yes-I'm still here but just for this conversation, which has really been eye-opening.
ReplyDeleteThe reason I continue to attend the Catholic Church and send my kids to Catholic school is that I generally agree with most of the teachings of this Church. Also, while slow to change, throughout history, the Catholic Church does review it's Canon Law and make changes to it and updates (i.e. Vatican II Council.)
Ultimately, I feel that the Catholic Church allows its parishinors a structure of living their faith that works well for my family and me. I believe that good religious "habits" help us to stay close to God. Religion and faith don't necessarily come natural...that's why they call it "practicing." It takes lots of practice, lots of questioning, etc..
I do not feel that I am silently supporting the cover ups and yes, I have and my family and friends (see above) do speak out against this. They ARE working on fixing it (although you can't undo what has happened) and a new awareness has been brought about within the Church.
But it the Church's people who have brought this about and those within the Church who continue to speak out. As far as the money goes-people seem to think that it only goes to gilded decorations at the Vatican. But that money goes to a lot of other things as well. It helps pay the bills at the Church-someone has to pay the mortgage, the electric bill, etc...we also have to pay to house our priests and pay their salaray (yes they do get paid!) We also support our school. We also support numberous ministries that go out and help those in need in our community.
Church is also a great place for fellowship with your friends and neighbors. It helps to build community. When someone in our community is in need,we respond with support. My kids have built some great friendships with our fellow parishinors, who "think like us." Not to say those who don't think like us are not nice to have around, but everyone likes to hang out with people like them.
So overall, while the scandal that has rocked the Church and has hurt so many young people and their families, the Church ultimately does much more good than harm, in my opinion.
Please don't think I am trying to minimize what has happened. Absolutely NOT!!! But that is NOT all that is the Catholic Church. What happened does NOT represent all of our parishinors.
Also, I don't think the Catholic Church tries to tell others how to live (there are some faiths who do go out and do all of that.) But Catholics do have views on things like homosexuality, etc...that apply to it's parishinors.
The only issue I do speak out on and work to change is abortion, and that is less because of my faith, but rather my belief that the unborn are still people and they have rights, even though they are within another person's body.
Anyway...I hope that helps explain myself a bit.
Peace!
Ice Angel, I think this is the reason you should stay. Many of us are here for the community rather than the gossip or blogger. I think you would miss the conversations. I would.
ReplyDeleteI am troubled that your friend was on a path to be a Cardinal and then when he uncovered abuses he's no longer considered. Doesn't that seem that the powers in charge don't want to deal with the issue? (That is NOT a personal attack, that is a concern about the Church as an organization.) If I ran a company (by way of example, because I am Christian and don't wish to speculate on "running a religion"), if someone brought to my attention something horrific within my company that I had been unaware of, that would be the person I would trust and promote. That is the person who has the best interests of the mission of the company at heart, since they wanted to call out elements that go against that mission. That SHOULD happen in the Church too and it evidently doesn't always. It sincerely troubles me that your friend has become "unpopular" within the Church for being the one who (like Jesus) would sacrifice everything for the truth and justice. It really seems, like in his case specifically, that while individuals are trying to make things right, the structure and hierarchy is more willing to protect the organization than to serve and help the victims. (Not that that is unique to the Church, but it is especially sad when it's the Church.)
Hope you stick around here.
Ice Angel, well stated.
ReplyDeleteI hate the word "pedophilia". It is just another MAN-made word to erase the fact that it is in fact CHILD RAPE. There is NO LOVE whatsoever about it. I use "pedocriminality". It's longer, but far more accurate.
ReplyDeleteThe Catholic church is pure fucking evil. Just another woman-hating cult.
Marie- well said.
ReplyDeletewasn't there also in the 13th century, a woman pope...she pretended to be a male, but actually gave birth during a procession, which obvs, blew her cover and I believe she was murdered on the spot, although I'm not totally sure of that. There was a book written about it.
ReplyDeletePersonally, I don't see why the roman cath church should be ashamed of this fact. If anything, it glorifies JC even more.
@MLE
ReplyDeleteB.Profane is always embarrassing himself.