It happens so rarely that it makes front page news across the world, and for once, it is not a teacher. These are two real adults. It happened in Australia. Helen Elder, who is 39, is accused of breaking into a man's house and performing oral sex on him. He says it was rape. Police and prosecutors say it was rape. There is no mention of any guns or knives or tying him to the bed. Was he much smaller than her? This is a hard one to understand. Maybe she thought it was roleplaying? Did they know each other? So many questions and not enough answers.
I find it hard to believe a woman would break in to a stranger's house and perform oral sex on him it's such a personal act....Oh well...
ReplyDeletei wouldn't admit it, and probably thank her after...
ReplyDeleteRape doesn't have to have violence or weapons. If someone -- male OR female -- says no or is incapacitated, it's rape. Period.
ReplyDeleteGranted, as Enty mentioned, more details would help.
I mean if she asked almost any man he would probably just agree to it. Why break in?
ReplyDeleteI can NOT believe I missed that one!,
ReplyDeleteI am so tired I will HAVE To google tomorrow.
It is quite difficult to understand ? Maybe he is disabled somehow ? Maybe you already know LOL ?
There is so little to this story that it's almost impossible to speculate about anything.
ReplyDeleteI DO think a man can be raped but it is a much trickier subject than the surface suggests, IMO at least.
I had a former older male college classmate who was raped by 3 older women. I forget the details but I think he was a young man and one of the ladies hit on him and I think he went to her house. Unbeknownst to him, she had 2 other females with her. They took off his clothes, began kissing him everywhere. They cornered him onto a couch, where they took turns on him. I can see where that might be a bit overwhelming and intimidating to a young man. SO many years later when I met this classmate, he was very paranoid about being in the corner of the class with females all around him. I actually had a couple of classes with him and always notices him being adamant about sitting in the front of the class.
ReplyDeleteI swear I didn't google this is just a guess, she pretended she was someone else?
ReplyDeleteIf this was the other way around, and someone said that it was a woman who was larger than the male who raped her, or no weapons were involved, is it really rape, they would be raked over the coals.
ReplyDeleteLOL!!! I'm sorry. But how was he able to get it up if he was so scared and upset about being raped? Obviously, he liked it and was excited by it. And Enty's right...was she bigger and stronger than him?
ReplyDeleteWhat a crock.
unless he consented, it was rape. we need to accept that for men as well as for women
ReplyDeleteOff topic....what is Enty's email address?
ReplyDeleteentlawyer90210@yahoo.com :)
DeleteI know a gay guy who was raped by a prostitute who was paid for by his father in order to turn him straight. Needless to say it did not work.
ReplyDeleteDoes anyone else remember that Josh Hartnett movie where he gave up sex for 40 days? And then on the night of the last day when he handcuffed himself to the bed his ex let herself in and raped him? His girlfriend got mad at him and the whole time I was thinking - he was just RAPED!!! Why is this not being discussed?!?
ReplyDelete.... Anyways .....
It's so dumb, it's like if a guy is the victim it doesn't matter, or should be funny.
DeleteMy husband made me watch this (terrible, awful) movie the other night where a guy rapes another guy in a van, but it's done in a comedic sense. I just don't get it. There was nothing funny about it.
My first reaction is what crila said. How can a guy perform if he is scared?! But a guy's biology is very separate from his emotion, so I could sorta see it.
ReplyDeleteI know plenty of women who are able to overpower men. Not all women are small, tiny things.
Gotta agree, no means no no matter what the gender is.
Everyone is always quick to point out that a guy has to get hard. Who said he was hard? It just says she performed oral sex on him.
ReplyDeleteHonestly, with the way a guys body works...it could be his body responded to stimuli even if he did say no.
Rape is rape...
I agree that more details would be helpful. Rape is rape, which is defined as one or more parties performing a sexual act on another party without that party's consent. Period. It doesn't matter what someone else who wasn't there thinks, really.
ReplyDeleteIt doesn't matter whether the guy was hard or not. The moment that woman made unwanted and unsolicited contact with that guy's genitals, that is sexual assault. When she performed oral sex on him, that is rape. If the situation was reversed, would you ask if a woman has to be lubricated in order to be raped?? Of course not! Rape is the ultimate violation of a person's body and without a person's conscious and freely given consent, it is NEVER okay regardless of how the person's body reacted and regardless of the person's gender.
ReplyDeleteIt also doesn't matter if the victim becomes aroused during the assault as that can be a natural reaction that does not have anything to do with what is going on in the victim's mind. It appears that rape victim's not only have to deal with the rape itself, they have to deal with gross misconceptions and accusations from people who don't have a clue, so they become victim's yet again. The human race could stand to be more educated in these matters.
ReplyDeleteFor those who want to know how a man can be raped, read this article by a male victim who was continually raped as a teen by another man. He himself said that his body reacted, but he knew that something was not right.
ReplyDelete"Here you’ve got this guy telling you what you are, and your body is responding, so he must be right. And yet it doesn’t feel right inside. Who am I? What am I?”
And in the case of male victims, it isn't about being physically overpowered by the attacker:
"But once it began it was impossible for the youngster to stop, even though, physically, he towered over James.
“One punch and it would have been all over,” he says. “And believe me, that’s one of the things I’ve carried with me for 30-odd years." "
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/graham-jamess-alleged-first-victim-finally-has-his-say/article2372297/
If being scared or uncomfortable couls stop a man from getting an erection, being a male teenager would probably be a lot less awkward than it clearly is. The penis has a life of its own and doesn't care what the brain is saying.
ReplyDeleteAny amount of stimulus, whether it's wanted or unwanted, can cause a genital reaction. There are female rape victims who have orgasms during their attack--it doesn't mean they weren't raped, but it adds a level of stigma and shame and doubt to their suffering. The laughter and doubt over whether a man can be raped is so disheartening, especially since CDAN commenters are generally more sensitive than that.
ReplyDelete@MontanaMarriott - That is awful. So sorry for you friend.
ReplyDeleteIf the situation were reversed, ie: a man raping a woman, nobody would ask these questions. Rape is rape, regardless of gender, strength, weapons.
ReplyDeleteInteresting that there is no mention of her being charged with battery or assault. She's charged with burglary and rape.
ReplyDeleteA person has to be AWARE that the other person doesn't consent. At least in America. The fact that the other person didn't want it isn't enough unless the other person made you aware that they didn't want it.
There don't appear to be allegations of physical force. So maybe it was through incapacitation? It seems strange. Of course, as a lawyer, I think it's strange when a woman claims a man (friend) breaks into her house to rape her. I've seen those cases RARELY. Both times, the woman was caught by her husband and that was the allegation.
Very interesting.
I feel sorry for the guy, it must have been difficult to admit that this happened. No always should mean No, and rape is always rape.
ReplyDeleteNo always means no especially concerning sex.
ReplyDeleteNo arguments here about that.
Crila, so are you saying when a man is anally raped and gains an erection he was enjoying it? It is a physical response, not 'begging' for it.
ReplyDeleteIs that Kirstie Alley???
ReplyDeleteKara, how do you know there are no implications of physical force? Are you getting more details from somewhere else?
ReplyDeleteAnd it's a reasonable person standard when it comes to knowledge of lack of consent in most states in the US.
You're a lawyer and you think acquaintance rape is strange?
I can’t believe this. Some of you really believe this might not have been rape because „he must have liked it if he got hard” ??? Are you serious?? There are plenty of women out there who had an orgasm while being raped. It doesn’t mean they liked it.. Sometimes bodies act on their own. It has nothing to do with liking it.
ReplyDeleteNoetje- whoa. I came on here to write THE EXACT same thing you did!
ReplyDeleteI think, even if this situation sounds dicey, which it sorta does (probably cause we dont know the details), you ALWAYS have to be careful around accusations like these. Namely because (as Noetje already pointed out) women who are raped CAN and DO have sexual stimulation which has produced orgasm and being wet. And from what I've heard, afterwards the victim feels really fucked up because they dont know how to process this aspect of the rape.
So, in the same vein, we dont want to be flippant about men achieving hard ons/orgasms from female rape as this would be synonymous with blaming the victim for bodily actions they cannot control.
Imagine being raped and then having people the world over speculate whether you secretly liked it, wondering if it was really rape if no weapons were involved, saying things like they'd maybe even thank their rapist, and questioning whether you knew the person and maybe this was a sex game instead? My goodness. As difficult as it is to admit to being raped, how much worse is it to defend YOURSELF after making that allegation? No means rape. If genders were reversed, this would be a horrible gossip post. Guess what? It still is.
ReplyDeleteI hope this victim gets the help and advocacy he needs.
Thank you Domestic Chicky!
ReplyDeleteHas anyone else seen the documentary "Tabloid"? It is about a woman obsessed with a former (Mormon) boyfriend. She kidnapped, held hostage and repeatedly raped her non-consenting (virgin) ex. Was a HUGE story in the 70's(?) Pretty fascinating.
ReplyDeleteWhether you want to call it rape or sexual assault, if he said "NO!" and she kept going, that's what it was. There may have been various reasons why he couldn't have just flipped her off him (for one thing, she had his dick between her teeth, which is a seriously vulnerable situation right there...), but yes, if it's against someone's will and they've made that fact clear, then that's what it is. (Badgering someone for sex until they finally give in isn't technically an assault, but it's still not right--really, you want to have sex with someone who doesn't really want it themselves? What's the fun there? (Yes, I know, at that point it's a power issue more than a sex one. It's still not right IMNSHO.)
ReplyDeleteI am so offended by the crap on here. First, you don't know if his body responded. Secondly, so what if it did? You think you can imagine what that's like for a man and shame him for having no control over his nerve endings? Do you think if a woman's body betrays her by having an orgasm during a rape that she is a liar/wanted it/fraud/guilty?
ReplyDeleteI know a man who was raped by a woman.
In addition, you are all presuming this man is heterosexual. He may not be.
If I were you I'd take down all your offensive, sexist and ignorant comments. How would you like a bunch of judgemental men coming down hard on your credibility with generalizations, shaming words and laughter? It's much more likely to happen to a woman.
I am for once repulsed by these careless comments.
Kara please expound on your last paragraph. Im thinking you sound like someone trying to impersonate a lawyer. Most rapes happen by an acquaintances and if someone has broken into someone else's house, I'm betting the sexual contact was not wanted. What kind of 'lawyer' are you? And, Kara, if the woman broke into his house, wtf does he need to say to appease you as a 'lawyer'? I do not think you need to say the exact words or semantical equivalent for no when someone breaks into your house-because his freaking door locks said it for him. Thanks for contributing to the massive dung heap if sexual assault ignorance and may you never be the target of such knowing ignorance yourself.
ReplyDeleteFor the record, it is possible for the genitalia to respond even if the person is being raped. Both male and female. Rape is Rape. Non-consensual sex. Maybe that is too rigid but it is the law. And yes,. most men would welcome this, however as women, have pointed out many times, it is not about the sex; it is about the power.
ReplyDeleteDear Enty. I know you're an entertainment lawyer. Supposedly. But I would imagine that at some point in time you covered that no means no. Doesn't matter what the context was, if it was nonconsensual, it was rape.
ReplyDeleteShame on you for trying to imply it wasn't by wondering how big the guy was or anything else like that- it's attitudes like that which are why men typically don't report being the victim of sexual assault.
I believe she broke in at night. He was probably asleep. Not that it matters. Rape is rape. I don't care how it went down, I just hope he gets justice and counseling for this grave injustice perpetrated against him. Imagine how he must feel about his home, having been violated in what is supposed to be a person's haven after he locked up. I applaud his courage in coming forward and hope it inspires more men the world over who have been raped to come forward as well. I too am disgusted by the ignorant comments on this post and hope they think about how they would feel if the comments were written about them.
ReplyDeleteI cant believe some of you dumbasses are questioning the story because he may have gotten sexually excited.
ReplyDeleteNews flash dummies, some women who are raped also get sexually excited. Does that negate the fact that they were penetrated without consent? I cant believe the fucking stupidity.
@MLE Joyce McKinney. Interesting story. Haven't seen Tabloid but I'm familiar with the story. Pretty detailed account at TruTV Crime Library. They escaped dressed as nuns and mimes! The hell!
ReplyDeleteI don't think the matter of whether or not it was rape was questioned. It was more the matter of how did she seem to overpower him since there was no mention of guns, etc. That's why he asked if the guy was much smaller than her. He was probably sleeping and didn't react right away thinking it was a dream, which could be why he didn't stop it before it started. To comment on a guy being hard while raped, I think I've heard some men get hard when scared, just a natural reaction
ReplyDeleteAlso, are we really questioning a man for not fighting off a woman when her teeth are RIGHT THERE? But seriously, a lot of women don't fight either. It doesn't make it consensual.
ReplyDelete@Thea -- Thank you for saying that much more eloquently than I could. Physical arousal does not equal consent. Period.
ReplyDeleteI don't think Enty was questioning it (sounded like he was just wondering about the circumstances), but many of the comments were more than a little ignorant and harsh.
ReplyDeleteYes, men can be raped.
No, it does not mean consent if your body responds in a way that contradicts your mind.
Yes, I doubt stories of rape when the story is very fishy (ie: DMX's lovechild/rape story)
No, you should not doubt every rape claim just because some people 'cry rape'
And I think many male rape/sexual assault victims do just brush it off, but it doesn't mean that they should. Someone very close to me was fondled while asleep when he was younger by a girl who was a few years older than him. Years later he was fondled while sleeping by another guy. He did not consent to either assault and was disgusted by each of them, but can you guess which one he viewed as a sexual assault?
When it first happened and he told people about what the girl had done to him he was met with high-fives. When he told people about the guy, they all joined together to thoroughly beat the guy's ass.
I have a suspicion that if people had acted outraged when the first assault had happened that he would have viewed it very differently. He never even seemed to realize it was an assault until he and I had talked about it. When I told him that each incident was equally wrong I could see it register on his face that he had never even considered that as molestation/sexual assault. I actually think that what the female did was worse because he was a child at the time and he said it felt like forever before she left him alone (he was pretending to sleep while she had her hand down his pants and was pushing his hand down her pants). The second assault happened to him as an adult and he said as soon as he realized the guy was putting his hand down his pants he started throwing punches. Since he is a hetero guy, everybody (including him) just wrote the first episode off as unwanted, but the second episode as fucked up.
I had a boyfriend once who had been hanging out with a girl casually, they got drunk at her house one night, he passed out and he woke up and she was having sex with him. He had a crush on her and wanted to date her, but he was so angry that she took advantage of him like that. If that's not date rape...
ReplyDelete