Michelle Duggar Says The World Has Plenty Of Room For More Kids
The Duggar family has 436 children but do a remarkably good job of raising them and they support them without the assistance of the government and I really don't have any qualms with what they want to do individually. There are a lot of families with far fewer children that have way more issues.
That being said, I do wish she would actually turn on a television or just Google overcrowding or overpopulation and then read what she says. She recently told CBN that overpopulation is a lie. See, that really bothers me because there are too many people on the planet. Michelle says that you can never have enough children and that each child brought into the world raises the joy level of the planet.
Think of it like this. She thinks more children equates to everyone singing Christmas songs to raise Christmas cheer in Elf. Everytime a child is born Michelle thinks there is some joy meter that inches upward. I think that is true for an individual family, but I can't believe that she honestly thinks that if all the billions of people on this earth each had 19 kids that everyone would be having orgasms in the street because the joy level was so high. Can you imagine the world with 19 times the number of people it already has? How is that going to work? I don't like when people say something is a lie and then just talk and don't bring any facts to support their argument. You say that overpopulation is a lie, but the only thing you say to support it is to quote Mother Teresa.
anyone with that hairstyle cannot be rational
ReplyDeleteTHANK. YOU.
DeleteShe lives in a world of pink ponies and rainbows.
ReplyDeleteDid she seriously just say the whole population of the world could fit shoulder to shoulder in Jacksonville?
ReplyDeleteI have a super-conservative friend of a friend that I have to socialize with pretty frequently. He's an idiot. I say that not because he has conservative beliefs that I don't agree with, but because he is, in fact, an idiot. He's very convinced that people can and should be living until they are 150. I asked him the other day what would people do for food if we all started living that long? How long would we be fertile? How long before the plant was severely overpopulated? He said "Oh, there's plenty of room and food. Overpopulation isn't a problem. The Earth can handle as many people as live on it." He's a nut job on several levels. So are the Duggars.
ReplyDeleteLook I'm still trying to figure out how all those kids were conceived. There is NO way either of them get sexually aroused.
ReplyDeleteShe's in a cult; of course she's fucking crazy.
ReplyDeleteIt's less about Christmas cheer and more about being an evangelical Christian who thinks big families = more souls for Jesus. http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2009/03/16/extreme-motherhood.html
ReplyDeleteOh shoot this makes sense!!!!
DeleteMod7, they're evangelical freaks. Arousal has NOTHING to do with it; especially for her. She's just a baby factory, her needs and feelings are irrelevant.
ReplyDeleteThank you Vicki!!
DeleteNo seriously!! How can the entire population of the world fit in JACKSONVILLE!? China...big ass CHINA is overcrowded but China plus everyone else can fit in Jacksonville!?! This pisses me off! I'm a Christian & I go to church about every Sunday but I can't stand a stone cold STOOPID Christian like Mrs. Duggar.
ReplyDeleteShe has never been on a commuter train during rush hour with a SCREAMING baby. Find the "joy" in that. I dare ya!!!!
ReplyDeleteIt's natural she thinks that since she pretty much can fit everyone on earth side by side in her clown car vagina.
ReplyDeleteShe may be a nut and her "facts" about overpopulation are dead wrong, but I'd still take her over octomom any day.
ReplyDeleteMod7, she's of the ilk that relies on faith and Jesus alone; not the intelligence and common sense God gave her.
ReplyDeleteI used to go to church, too. Hell, I had to go to a Christian university to become an atheist.
Right! If stricken w cancer she would pray it away...Smh
DeleteAuditoryCooze has it right. They are part of the quiverfull movement.
ReplyDeleteShe's seriously addicted to babies and pregnancy--once her kids are out of infancy she hands them off to the older kids/slaves to raise. She's going to have a hard time when she goes through menopause.
ReplyDeleteBy the time she hits menopause (or "The Promised Land" as I like to call it), her daughters will have been married off and pressured into being pregnant. She'll have hundreds of grandkids by the time she's 60.
ReplyDeleteNot saying this lady ain't nutty but over-population is a flat out lie.
ReplyDeleteEvery single person on the planet can be given a 1000 sq ft plot of land just in the state of texas. I currently live in a 600 sq ft apartment.
Enough food can be grown in africa to feed the entire worlds population.
Don't believe these elite racsist lies.
Um, is that is so why are people starving in Africa?
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ReplyDeletejakmak is technically correct (for the time being). There are about 7.6 billion arable acres of land in the word and only about 6.7 billion people, so each person should essentially have a little over an acre to themselves. Of course that doesn't take into account the fact that it would be impossible to move every person in the world around to reach such a configuration. The threat of overpopulation is real, as the population is only growing and the amount of arable land, if anything, is shrinking. There's room now, but for how long?
ReplyDeleteOh good lord, the hair...THE HAIR IS KILLING ME!!!
ReplyDeleteFor me, it's not an issue of overpopulation. I know very little of the subject so I can't discuss it. She lives in a country without limits on children so she's free to keep reproducing, just as others are free to not reproduce. What bothers me is her and her husband's insistance on bearing more children is extremely selfish as it's taking its toll on her health and the health of the unborn baby. She should concentrate on being a mother to her existing children and be happy with that.
ReplyDeleteHer stupididy and selfishness bother me immensely.
As for her style, does anyone else get the feeling she watches the REALLY OLD episodes of Seinfeld and thinks to herself, "Wow, Elaine looks great! I need to look like her!"
ReplyDeleteI really feel for the kids. What kind of adults are they going to be considering this nincompoop is home "schooling" them?
ReplyDeleteAlso, remember, 1 in 10 people are gay. Can't wait for one (hopefully 2) to come out later in life! Karma! :)
How old is she anyway? Perimenopause should come a-knocking soon, right?
ReplyDelete@ Ivy - people are starving in Africa because of politics, war and corruption. There's enough food, it just doesn't get to the people.
ReplyDeleteOkay, she's 45. Her fertility is almost over.
ReplyDeleteAudrey, they'll just pray the gay away. Her kids don't even know what homosexuality is.
ReplyDelete@Cathy, that was hilarious. I cringe when I see Elaine's style from back then.
ReplyDeleteMan, that hair is HEINOUS. It's either a mulletized Kate Gosselin whatever-that-was, or a take-off on Russel Brand's flat-frizz combo. Either way, what year does she think this is, anyway?
ReplyDeleteShe is NOT going to handle menopause well. She lives to be pregnant, it seems. You'd think she and Jim Bob would give up after having the last child born severely premature and suffering a miscarriage.
ReplyDeleteMichelle's body is screaming NO MORE, but she ain't listening. It's almost like she wants to die while giving birth. I doubt she does, but it seems that way. Guess she'd be assured permanent status as a good, angelic woman if that happened. It's disturbing.
I completely agree with AnitaMark. Great post.
ReplyDeleteUGH. She does NOT raise her kids, she takes care of each baby until about 9 mo. then hands them off to its older sister/mom. PUH-LEASE.
ReplyDeleteIn case anyone cares, in their last book -- yes, I read it; go figure -- they explicitly stated that they are NOT part of the Quiverfull movement. It really doesn't have any bearing on anything, I realize, but I figured I'd mention it.
ReplyDeleteI also believe that overpopulation, while perhaps not a myth per se, is sort of overblown, and I also believe that the problem is the distribution of resources, not a flat-out lack of them. Just sayin'.
I hate that the Duggars perpetuate the myth that they are self-sufficient and don't rely on government assistance. That is a LIE.
ReplyDeleteIt is public record that they are recipients of Medicare for their brood. 19 children times monthly Medicare payments plus any additional medical treatment subsidized by taxpayer money (while the Duggars DON'T PAY any taxes because they've claimed their home as a church... yeah, they are full of shit.
My favorite quote of her's is about 3-4 kids back. She said it before they had a regular show. It was said during a documentary/special that chronicled their current home being built. When she saw their master bedroom for the first time, decorated and furnished, she said, "Oh we finally have a romantic spot." Haha, I somehow don't think that was a problem before.
ReplyDeleteRegarding the hair comments. I acutally think this is a major improvement over what she had a couple years ago. Everything's relative.
ReplyDeleteSo...what happens when the kids grow up?
ReplyDelete@ghost - while i'm not saying you're wrong, can you cite any of the public records that show they get government assistance? I can't find anything. Also, you might be confusing medicare with medicaid? I can't find evidence of them receiving either...
ReplyDeleteoff to google the Quiverfull movement. Never heard of it!
ReplyDelete@Cathy- when I get to my actual laptop, sure! I'm posting from an iPhone while on a train, so it isn't feasible right now.
ReplyDeleteI thought overpopulation wasn't a problem in North America? That we are, in fact, in a decline over here?
ReplyDeleteAnd the African continent, on the whole, shouldn't be poor because they are so rich in natural mineral resources. Unfortunately, the politics are corrupt as hell there and the money really only goes to filling the coffers of those high up in government.
For more info on the Quiverfull movement (yes, the Duggars are connected), check out "Free Jinger". Should be top of any Google search. Excellent discussion boards about the movement from people who left and people who know.
ReplyDeleteI had no problem with the Duggars until a few months ago. I kind of took the stance that they weren't hurting anyone, weren't taking money from the government, etc., so to each his own. BUT one day, I guess after seeing them on tv or reading an interview or something, something clicked and I got mad. REAL mad. If their love for children comes from their belief that children are a gift from God (based on their Christian faith) then surely, SURELY they also believe that orphans are the responsibility of Christians, as described in the Bible. For all of their love of children, they couldn't make room in their home to adopt one child? Just one? Only biological children are a blessing and a gift from God I suppose? If you truly love children so much, it seems to me that you would have a soft spot for children with no family of their own, and could make room in your hearts and your home for an adopted child. Just my two pennies.
ReplyDeleteCheap and Pretty, I agree with you. She talks about how a child brings JOY into the world, but does she even know how many children are born each year to parents that don't want them or can't take care of them? She could bring joy to one or two of those children, she could save them. But no. Only pure Duggar brand in the Duggar house. She's freaking delusional.
ReplyDelete@Vicki Cupper - Ha! It took going to a Christian University to make me an atheist too.
ReplyDeleteI grew up in a *very* conservative household (read: no movies, no dancing, no makeup, no jewelry, etc) until I was about 15 and my parents had a spiritual awakening (their words, not mine), so I understand that you just can't argue with the crazy of the Duggars because I've lived it. In fact, my family calls my Dad Jim-Bob lite because he honestly is exactly like Jim-Bob minus the kids (down to every mannerism as well, it's downright scary). Imagine their shock when my oldest sister turns out to be a lesbian.
Oh and those of us who hate Michelle's hair - she DOES that to her hair, it's not natural. There was an episode a couple years ago about all the girls giving each other perms.
Sue Ellen is exactly right. North America is not overpopulated. Far from it. We produce too much food and waste literally thousands of tons of it every year. The Duggars are not harming anyone other than themselves by having a gigantic brood of kids.
ReplyDeleteToo many people think that "overpopulation" is about space. It's not. The world has plenty of physical space for everyone. And, in a politics-free world, everyone would have plenty of resources (food and shelter), too. Unfortunately, the places that are suffering from a lack of resources -- i.e., Africa, North Korea, China -- do so because of corrupt or incompetent governments.
Personally, I think the Duggars are nuts to have that many kids. I don't even want one. But that's their decision to make. And as long as they aren't on welfare and the kids are taken care of, it's no one else's business how many kids they have.
Didn't we talk about this very same subject a few days ago?
^Yes, we did.
ReplyDeleteAnd if anyone wants a good example of African political corruption take a look at Zimbabwe. They claim to be democratic, but you tell me what kind of a democracy has the same President since 1987 who is allowed to amend the Constitution as he sees fit?
WOW- so if there are "about 7.6 billion arable acres of land in the word and only about 6.7 billion people, so each person should essentially have a little over an acre to themselves" where the hell do, um I dunno, ANIMALS and other parts of nature fit into this?!
ReplyDeleteI AM SO FUCKING SICK OF the total greedy ass ignorant way humans just spread their shit around, bulldoze over rivers and creeks and forests and then kill wild life who deign to be in "their" land and think this is the right fucking thing to do!!!!!!
I guess we'll all just keep having children and our generation can go to the paper mache zoo where animals who used to live on the planet can be seen on drawings on the wall and such.
I hate people. And I hate that rainforests and natural resources are being polluted and torn down and no one seems to give a fuck.
Eff this family so hard- omg
Like any known person, she can say whatever she wants, but that does not make it true.
ReplyDeleteThank you Jasmine. Yes, while there is alot of land that we have not inhabited, not all of it is habitable to human needs (wetland, for example). And, out of all the land that is indeed habitable, are we seriously going to co-exisit with all the other organisms living in it? We would need to get rid of all those plants that supply O2 and reduce CO2 to build. Most of those cute woodland creatures would lose their homes. Oh and forget the predators like bobcats and wolves - they have been f*cked for some time now anyway.
ReplyDeleteHAHAHA, Meg, where did you go? I went to Harding University in Arkansas. Loved it until I realized what bullshit religion and conservatism are, sometime around when Bush was "elected". Also didn't help that the (female, mind you) dean of students told me it was my fault when another student sexually assaulted me when we were at work. "I should have expected it since we had 'fooled around.'" Then she threatened to suspend me for one semester because I was late once to chapel.
ReplyDeleteThe student center had giant TVs with nothing playing except Fox News. When I was in Korea, they actually hosted Hannity & Douche for a week; I was so ashamed.
My dad was an atheist but my mom is super conservative church of Christ. We weren't allowed wear shorts to evening services in the summer (in Mississippi). My sister and brother were allowed to do a lot of shit that I wasn't only because they weren't rah-rah Jesus freaks like I was. Was still treated like shit at church by the wonderful christians.
Fucking HATE religion and evangelical bullshit now because I lived it. Sometimes I feel like a fucking victim.
Patty - I don't think they need a "romantic" place, because I believe the Duggars only have sex in order to procreate. I wouldn't be surprised if they believe that sex outside of procreation is sinful.
ReplyDelete@Jasmine - I think you missed my point, or maybe I didn't present it clearly. I was conceding that while the math of it would suggest that over-population is not an issue, that doesn't mean it isn't a problem. I'm of the same mind on it as you.
ReplyDeleteI used to defend them, theyre different but sweet. Then I saw that they are Santorum supporters.
ReplyDeleteCalm down there, Jasmine! Deep breaths! I agree with you that we, as a species, have not been good caretakers of this planet. We waste so much of everything, we produce WAY too much trash and pollution, and the way we treat animals is shameful.
ReplyDeleteMy point is that the Duggars benefit from living in North America. If this were a family in, say, the Congo having 19 or 20 kids, I would think that they were totally irresponsible, because there is no way they could provide for them, and that country doesn't have the wherewithal to do so, either. But the Duggars live in a first-world nation. They have enough money to provide the necessities for their kids. In addition, our country's growth rate is slowing. Between 2030 and 2050, for instance, the US population will experience its slowest growth in history (this is according to the US census bureau).
The Duggars having a shitload of kids isn't going to have any effect on our resources or anything else, because there are way more people (like me) who won't reproduce to make up the difference, and then some.
@Cathy- LOL girl, I wasnt directing that to you, sorry if I made it seem like I was! I was just taking your stat and running with it :)
ReplyDelete@Texshan - you're right, but the question we have to ask ourselves, is what would happen (in north america) if EVERY person had 20 kids?
ReplyDeleteTexshan- I think that maybe the population slowing down its growth rate may be Mother Nature stepping in.
ReplyDeleteThis rabid need humans have to keep churning out people and this frankly paranoid sounding fear that humans will go extinct needs to stop!
P.S. If we DID go extinct, ironically, it'll probably be from having SO many humans that we strain the resources and available food past it's breaking point.
@Jasmine - PHEW! I was worried that my sarcasm in that comment had been lost! :)
ReplyDelete@Maja. With a J. - Adoption is REALLY freakin' expensive. Getting knocked up is free. The Duggars have said that that's the ONLY reason they don't adopt...the red tape and the expense. It's not a "pure-blooded Duggar" thing. The family has some whacked-out ideas, and I took some issue with the whole pimping-out-Jubilee thing, but I believe them about the adoption/biological birth thing.
ReplyDeleteWell, Cathy, of course if you take it to that extent, having 20 kids would be a huge issue. But the Duggars are famous simply because they AREN'T the norm. There hasn't been a big increase in the number of couples having litters of rugrats. I don't really think your point is valid. So no, we don't need to ask ourselves that question. Because it's never going to happen.
ReplyDeleteJasmine, I totally agree with you that way too many people seem to think that they MUST reproduce. My entire adult life, I've had people giving me crap because I've never wanted kids or a husband. I don't buy this idea that procreation is a biological imperative anymore -- I think it's a societal expectation that too few people actually examine critically.
Most public health experts and sociologists will say that there are several main reasons for the diminishing birth rates in first world countries. The high cost of raising children, getting married later in life, dedication to careers, a sense of not being able to "afford" a kid, higher sterility rates, a (supposed) wider acceptance of lifelong singlehood and childfree lifestyles, etc., all play a part.
I don't have a problem with the Duggars or how many children they have. They can provide for them and all their children seem well behaved and well adjusted. If anyone should have kids, it is them. Besides, someone has to be creating the generation that will pay for all these Boomers in their old age.
ReplyDeleteI think it's ridiculous when people preach "tolerance" and yet condemn them for their choices.
But one thing that annoys the crap out of me with the quiverfull movement is the claim that having a child every year is proof that they are "living in God's will" and that God is deciding how many children they have.
No, it means that you're having sex.
If your approach to family planning is "as God intended," then you should be using your body as God designed.
Women were designed to breastfeed. Only breastfeeding to 6 months is a relatively recent phenomenon in industrialized countries. In earlier times, the standard age to wean was 3 and even today the WHO recommends breastfeeding until age two.
But back to the quiverfull movement, if a baby is exclusively breastfed and nursed on demand, the woman's fertility is reduced.
The articles I've read in the past said it had a 95% efficacy rate, the same as the pill. This article gives it as 99% up until 6 months and 94% at 12.
http://www.llli.org/ba/aug93.html
There are always exceptions but most of the time, extended and exclusive breastfeeding will allow for 18 to 30 month spacing between children.
So no, God did not design women to have a child every 9 to 12 months. If he provided for a built in spacing mechanism, I think there was probably a reason.
I had a miscarriage 4 months into breast feeding on demand. I dont think that most people can nurse as much as required and not everyone is that lucky.
ReplyDeleteSame here except it was 6 months in. Breastfeeding as birth control isn't very reliable.
ReplyDeleteFYI - the Duggars DO have another house that they bought cheap that they use as a church. It isn't the one they live in.. I'm on the anti-religion boat..Religion traumitized me more than anything else.
ReplyDelete@VickiCupper - It was a small Evangelical university in BC, Canada. I think it's quite a bit more liberal now - but when I went, I had to sign a thing that said I wouldn't dance, drink, smoke or have sex (& I did all of that anyways, whoops). I lasted about a year living in the dorms (I didn't fit in as I didn't wear the unspoken uniform of long jean skirts and clogs :-P). My roommate was actually cool, but the rest of the girls were like Kelly Ripa on speed with Jesus-crazy thrown in. I still shake my head at it all.
ReplyDeleteI knew it was time for me to leave when I wanted to bash my head during all my classes because having an opinion other than what the professors espoused was harshly criticized. Your dean sounds like a huuuuge bitch - drives me batty how it's always the female's fault due to the patriarchal shit they dish out.
No wearing shorts? For the longest time, we weren't allowed to wear dress PANTS to church. Seriously. I know how you feel (re: a victim). My sister (who had it WAY worse than I did) and I joke we have PTSD from it all. I'm with you though - I HATE the religious evangelical bullshit that's overtaking the US right now too (I moved to Canada for school and never ended up moving). It just makes me sad. I miss how things used to be.
Fun with math:
ReplyDeleteYes, the whole world's population ("including China!") could fit in one ~25 mile square, so like in a city like Jacksonville, not that you could to LIVE like that. We would be gathered like at a assembly or fireworks show. It SOUNDS impossible, but the math works. We don't actually take up all that much space like that. The whole world could also fit in a state like Wyoming or North Dakota, if we were willing to have the population density of Manhattan (not that that density is ideal, but it is obviously survivable).
Plus, that would leave the REST of the world free for the trees, flowers and animals! (Yeah, I know, people are going to keep taking up more space than they really need, and animals will continue to be called "intruders" for venturing onto the land they used to inhabit before the subdivisions. Sigh.)
I am very sorry to read about the bad experiences some of you have had with organized religion. I am even sorrier to read that it put you off religion for life.
ReplyDeleteAs many of you who read the comments regularly may know, I am fairly religious. But my faith has always been a source of strength and comfort to me. It's awful when people take something that is supposed to help us find peace and stability in our lives and twist it to make it onerous, unpleasant, and unenjoyable.
I don't believe that God -- whether you believe in Him or not, or by any other name -- wants any religion to make people miserable.
I can only urge you to remember that, based on what I've read here, it wasn't really the faith itself that was making you miserable, it was the people who purported to believe in it. Perhaps rather than totally rejecting faith, you might want to see if you could instead independently learn and study and form your own basis of beliefs -- or non-belief, as the case may be.
I don't mean to sound superior or smug. I honestly just wish everyone could have the same experience with religion that I have had throughout my life.
A couple of final thoughts -- Mod7, if Michelle Duggar had cancer, she wouldn't try to "pray it away." As far as I know, the only established Western religions that espouse healing through faith alone are Pentecostals, Christian Scientists and Jehovah's Witnesses. The Duggars are none of these. She'd go to a doctor, just like she does every time she gets knocked up. (By the way, I've never understood the whole eschewing-a-doctor thing. Luke was a physician, after all, and he was good enough to hang with Jesus himself.)
And Audrey -- that "10% of the population is gay" tale is totally incorrect and has been proven so numerous times. It's based on Kinsey's data, which was found to have significant defects, not the least of which was that he used convenience samples rather than random samples. According to the most recent published journal articles, less than 4% of the US population identifies itself as gay, lesbian, bisexual or transgendered. This is NOT just my opinion. This is what the latest research shows.
More "fun" with math:
ReplyDeleteThis one's kind of creepy, but again, the math works and it shows how small we are compared to the world as a whole.
Back when the world's population was 6 billion people, you could fit the the entire world in casket-sized boxes (one person per box, average of 2 ft by 2 ft by 6ft) and stack them up...and it would take up only ONE (ONE!) CUBIC MILE! Actually, since many of the current 7 billion people of the world are children, you could probably still fit everyone in one cubic mile, with custom-sized boxes. Not that I recommend it.
We are overpopulated in the sense that we abuse the planet and use too much and waste too much, and resources are not evenly distributed. But for the actual space humans take up, it isn't so much.
(PS, in case anyone does the math to doublecheck the examples I posted above, ND is techically too small for a Manhattan-density world to fit, but it's flat so I thought it was a good choice. ND would work based on Manhattan's 1920s density (which was higher than now). WY is the right size going on Manhattan's 2000 census density. And we could fit in much smaller land areas--again, the WHOLE WORLD's population--if we lived at the population density people in Hong Kong or Manila do. Not that we SHOULD, just that we COULD.)
Meg, the shorts thing was my mother's rule. I wasn't allowed to wear pants on Sunday mornings until I was in college. I was denied a lot of shit growing up that all the other kids, even my brother and sister, were allowed to do. I feel like my life has been completely wasted. Thanks to religion.
ReplyDeleteI was a PR major and all of us communications majors were treated like bastards at a family reunion. The music & communication building is as far away from the campus as you could get. We weren't allowed to have a non-professor approved opinion either. Last I heard, Facebook, Myspace and I think, Youtube were all blocked on campus computers. I also remember a girl was raped by a basketball player on campus and she was quietly asked to leave and he was given a scholarship.
I'm pretty sure my hatred for mankind stems from my religious upbringing. But I could be wrong. :)
I don't believe that God -- whether you believe in Him or not, or by any other name -- wants any religion to make people miserable.
ReplyDeleteYeah, he wouldn't want somebody else to have all the fun.
Will avoid the whole religion thing for now...
ReplyDeleteWhat upsets me most about the whole situation is the unfairness of her extreme fertility. I know so many amazing women that would do anything for just one baby and her she is unhappy with only 20!?!
Adoption is expensive AND so many hoops. You have to prove, and prove, and prove again through mountains of paperwork and psych evals that you are a good fit person. These dumb dumbs just keep having sex. Totally unfair!
Lastly, as the oldest child of a large brood, I was that child slave and it robs you of your youth. That's why I haven't had kids yet and probably won't. When you change diapers and make bottles and listen to screaming babies from age 10 to 17 - makes the whole mommy thing seem like a horrible idea!
Which is maybe why I have my (not so) secret baby eating problem (watch out babies Aleph and Flynn and Louis). I want to eat their cuteness!!!
@Texshan - Well-said, and I agree.
ReplyDeleteFor those who are claiming that they get tax breaks for saying that they ARE a church, or that they've bought a house to USE as a church, or that they receive Medicare or Medicaid, or that they're Quiverfull, or any of that: I want concrete, well-cited proof, please. Because they refuted ALL of that in their book, and although they may be fame whores, I don't think they're liars. I think all of those things mentioned are basically urban legends. So please, pull a Smoking gun and show me the legal papers.