Interesting discussion on my sports talk station yesterday and thought I would bring it here. So, if you are married and your spouse cheats do you stay together? Does your answer change if you have kids together?
Hypotheticals are so hard for me to answer, but I don't think I could handle it if my spouse cheated, and yes, we do have a child.
That said. Bitch please. My husband would never run around on me. He straight up said he could only handle one woman, which is moi and my goddess ways.
I did in my first marriage and I made it VERY clear I absolutely positively will NOT do it again with my current husband. I learned my dumb ass lesson. My ex and I have a kid and my new husband I and have a kid. So the answer doesn't change. Just no.
I think I'd split, that would be so hard to deal with. Trust is everything, trust that they wouldn't intentionally cause you harm. If you lose that, what do you have?
I'd like to think I could somehow get past the infidelity through couples therapy, and see the big picture instead of focussing on the indiscretion. But I doubt I could ever forgive, much less forget!
I cheated on my serious boyfriend nearly 20 years ago and I saw the damage that does. Don't do it!
Also, my dad cheated on my mom for decades, and when I was in my late teens I witnessed it myself. Motherfucker broke my heart and my mom's too.
I've never been cheated on (as far as I know), so it's tough to answer a hypothetical without ever having been in the situation. With that being said, I've told my husband that I don't tolerate cheating AT ALL. And that I would, in the most literal sense, murder him if he ever did. But I'm pretty confident he never would anyway. :) I know a lot of people don't THINK their spouse would ever cheat on them, but in so many ways still don't trust them. I can say with certainty that I completely and totally trust my husband. That's why I married him.
Absolutely not and my answer would not change if I have kids. I told my husband early on if he wanted out, just tell me and it would be amicable. I am just not that strong of a person and I would never be able to get over that level of deception.
My husband and I had a long talk about this before we even got married. No, neither one of us would cheat. If we did, marriage is over. Both of us have experienced it and neither one of us wants to hurt the other or ourselves in that manner.
I think that the greatest joy a person can know is a mutually trusting, very intimate relationship. So by cheating, you're only hurting yourself, denying yourself.
If you don't want that and want to cheat, then get out of your marriage.
I have never been married and I don't have children. I am in a long time relationship though. Black and white answers seem to be a little murky. If he wanted to have someone else, I would want him to tell me about it. It might be ok. I however would end things outright if I wanted to be with anyone else. Best quote ever on this is from Johnny Depp "If you are in love with two people and don't know who to choose pick the second. If you were happy with the first, you wouldn't have gotten involved with the second."
I think most couples have this talk. We've been married 23 years, I might handle a one night fling sort of thing. An affair, NO. I told him long ago if he felt he needed someone else , just tell me, I'll leave or he can leave.
I'm with the rest of you on the issue of trust. Once trust is broken for me, peace out. As for kids, I believe it's better to break up than to have kids endure a bad marriage. Staying together for the kids isn't healthy.
This is the question that incites so much hypocrisy from women that it almost makes a mockery of the idea of pair-bonding as intrinsic to human nature. I had so many women hit on me when I was married. Not sluts but highly educated professional colleagues and friends. They looked right past the ring on my finger. They were not man-thieves either.
I have had so many girlfriends and women friends talk about their affairs. Everyone "cheats."
So I say this with love, but...bitches please, get off your high horses. Puritan morality is a huge lie, always had been.
No...kids or no kids. Once a spouse cheats, you'll never forgive them (or at least forget) and that anomosity will carry over into your treatment of that person. You don't want the kids to be around that or to see the constant paranoia or passive agressive behavior...always wondering if and when they'll do it again. It will tear you a part. Also, you don't want to chance catching any diseases.
Uh... B.Profane, all those women you say were hitting on you - they WERE sluts, and they WERE "man-thieves". You said it yourself, they knew you were married and didn't care.
Just because they were "highly educated" with careers doesn't make them any less whorish.
Not everybody cheats. Maybe you just need to find a better class of people to hang around with.
Two things I told my husband when we met. (1) honesty and (2) monogamous. Both agree to it. Also told him their is no excuse if he was to cheat. Once he does he is out the door, no forgiveness. He is not the cheating type, but at the time I felt he needed to know how I felt if we were to be in a serious relationship.
I can never understand why some people get married if they are going to continue cheating on your love one.
I hold a degree from an elite, "name" institution, am highly successful in my field, earn in the top 5% bracket, etc. My female contemporaries are the same. Lawyers, academics, executives. They're accomplished, mature people, smart enough not to hew to some antiquated Puritan morality. They're not sluts.
Dating lots of divorced moms, I have seen the other side as well. I have held to many crying mommies to side with sleazeball dads who dump their wives for a younger model, breaking up the home, forcing the sale of the house from underneath the kids, etc. But that's a far different thing.
And if you and your colleagues truly believe that academic qualifications and salary exempts you from being a slut when you behave like one, then clearly neither the studying nor the money have given you an ounce of self-respect and self-awareness.
@ Sylvia, I can't speak for anyone else but we got married to form a family and raise children and we believe that if we had children we were committed to bringing them up in an intact, healthy family. It's not for everyone but it's worked for us for 30+ years
@B.Profane, your lawyers and smart academics should understand contracts then, which is what a marriage is between two people. To go after someone who you know is married solely for your own thrill is sluttish behavior.
AS for you, why so many divorced moms? Did you think they would be easy if you gave them a shoulder to cry on?
Puritan morality? How about just some moral ethics period. Being smart, or having a degree from a "name" institution, or having a high earning percentage, does not make you a good or moral person. It can't be bought or taught.
As soon as you find out you partner is cheating, it is over. You will never be able to trust them again. When he says that he and the guys are going out, you will wonder if he is really meeting up with some other woman. My answer is the same if you have or don't have any kids.
No. No. And two more no's for live-ins. There are too many better guys out there to put up with that. Just leave already of you have wander-peen so bad. That's what I do. And especially if you have kids - although I do not and never will. Kids need to know this is not normal acceptable behavior and it has severe consequences.
Emotional fidelity is the real key. Not that I didn't feel a little jealous when my wife was away on business with the handsome partner from her law firm.
I kind of agree with amazonblue here. I think people are allowed to make a mistake, albeit some mistakes are bigger than others. It's hard to go back to someone who betrayed your trust and not have it constantly hanging over your head, but if you make the effort to forgive and move on, you can , if that's what you want. But if it happens AGAIN after that...in the unforgettable words of Joaquin Phoenix; BYE! GOOD!
I've been married almost 17 years, and I can't say that a one time infidelity would cause me to kick him out, but I don't think you really ever know what you'd do until it really happens. Hopefully, I'll never have to find out what I would do. I do know that it would absolutely be a deal breaker for my husband if I ever cheated.
For some couples I know where cheating has not broken up the marriage, it was usually a case of one partner (in both cases that I know of, it was the wife) just lost all interest in sex even though they still loved their spouse. If a man goes without sex long enough, he will stray. Same thing for a woman. I can see why they were forgiven in cases like that.
The hypocrisy here is just rank. Of the women you all work with, of the women friends with whom you socialize...your cousins or sisters even...chances are many of them are "cheating."
Statistically, the chances are that the majority of women who have posted responses have strayed and just aren't admitting it. 15% of children born in wedlock in this country were fathered by someone other than the husband.
But don't let that stop you from posting sanctimonious screeds about mutilating men's penises....
@B. Profane -- This post began as a hypothetical UNISEX discussion about whether any of us would forgive a spouse for cheating, and you've turned it into a misogynistic indictment against modern women.
Interesting.
It's also interesting how you can't resist mentioning the fact that you obtained an Ivy League education whenever you post on this site. Guess what? Many of the people who comment here are doctors, lawyers, professors, entrepreneurs, and people who hold interesting positions within the entertainment industry. I know you view yourself as superior -- believe me, it DEFinitely shows -- but the ONLY person who gives one single solitary shit about where you obtained your degree is YOU.
You come across as such an unbearably pretentious choad on this forum; I shudder to imagine what you might be like in person. I just take solace in the fact that you're just an exceptionally shitty human being, and not really a prime example of your gender.
@B.Profane, I gave you some static about what I think are your female friends sluttish behavior.
Now I'm trying to understand...I know you're married, so the question is, if your wife cheated with the handsome partner from her law firm on that business trip, would it break up the marriage?
Are you advocating open marriages?
You said *emotional fidelity is key*, but if there is physical infidelity doesn't that beg the question of fidelity at all?
Did you cheat and not get forgiven?
I just can't tell from your posts which side of this simple question you're on.
I have never cheated on a partner in 25 years of having serious boyfriends. Not once, not ever. I've been cheated on several times. I've either walked away or not really cared and ended up running away later.
In my current relationship...he would have to have fallen out of love with me and in love with someone else. And gone completely mad. So there would be no point in staying together. We don't have children. It would break me though.
B. Profane, you mock our "blanket" statements and then you insist all women cheat.
I was married 17 years and I did not cheat. I trusted my husband and would have sworn to you that he didn't either. Then after the divorce (for reasons other than cheating) they all came out of the woodwork, he'd been banging all my female friends for years. He even tried putting moves on my mother, who didn't tell me because she didn't want to "cause problems" and have me end up a single mother like she was. I don't really date any more, tired of the chaos, but when I did, I never knowingly had anything to do with married men. I'm not trying to be sanctimonious, I'm just trying to point out that you can't paint all women with the same brush, and that there are probably more out there like me than there are educated whores who come on to married men.
I guess it would depend on the circumstances. I don't believe in marriage, anyway. It's a sham for the majority of people. And too many aren't sexually faithful to their spouses. Why the pretense? We're in a different world today. Women don't have to be stuck in bad marriages anymore like they have been for centuries. People change and grow apart. I do love seeing old couples who grow together, though, but that's all too rare.
At least people in open marriages are honest - to a point. The truth is, open marriages aren't going to last, either, because if you're "out there", the odds of finding someone more compatible increase.
I made quite sure my husband knew where I stood on fidelity before we got married-he was on the same page and held the same views. We both know it would be over if we cheated. I have said if he ever does slip, he is to tell me immediately. If he cheated then put his potentially diseased penis in me, he wouldn't have one by the time I was through. We couldn't have children, so I can't answer that one. Maggie, what are your rules? Finally, can we please stop calling each other names?
I made quite sure my husband knew where I stood on fidelity before we got married-he was on the same page and held the same views. We both know it would be over if we cheated. I have said if he ever does slip, he is to tell me immediately. If he cheated then put his potentially diseased penis in me, he wouldn't have one by the time I was through. We couldn't have children, so I can't answer that one. Maggie, what are your rules? Finally, can we please stop calling each other names?
@feraltart -- I'm not proud of the fact that I resorted to name-calling. I guess it was the fact that we were all labeled ''bitches'' pretty early on in the thread with little prior provocation that spurred me on.
I can understand people responding to name calling by returning serve Ida. I have just noticed in general that the level of discussion on the blog has degenerated from the high standard we long-term readers have been spoiled with. I have also noticed that we seem to get some new commentators who stir the pot, cause regulars to leave, then are never heard from again. I suspect there are people trying to affect CDAN's popularity. If we ignore them, and not resort to their level, hopefully they will go away.
Pardon the long response, but some questions were asked of me specifically. Let's do the easy part first:
@Del Riser -- I'm on the side of sanity and reason. Have some perspective, people. If this were Europe we wouldn't be having this dispute. What side am I on? I'm on the side in which at Merkel's funeral both her husband and her secret second husband attend, along with all the children they had together, like Francois Mitterand's.
No, I don't advocate open marriage and I generally find people who do (BTDT) a little creepy. No, I wasn't burned by fidelity transgressions in my one official marriage. Our counselor said that we'd been hit by the perfect storm of external disasters.
And let's stop there. Why are you trying to glean from your assumptions about me personal experience a justification? Seriously, let's abstract the whole issue:
In an alternate universe star-bellied sneetches and plain-bellied-sneetches hump, fall in love and procreate, the latter nominally in the guise of sneetch-lock. (Also, about ten percent of sneetches actually prefer to hump those of their own belly-tude but we'll leave them out for simplicity.)
"Hark ye," cried Yolanda Plain-Belly as she turned off Oprah, "See there, there goeth Clem Star-Belly with Lolita Plain-Belly!"
"See them saunter, see them flirt See them humping raunchily in the dirt! See, see, do you see? Do you see Clem banging a belly that ain't me?
Oh, that slut! Oh that Clem! Their fault is obviously the perfidy of men! By nature a belly should be smooth and true. And if it ain't that means he's cheatin' on you!"
Etc, etc. Stop trying to fit me into a pigeonhole that conveniently allows you to dismiss me whilst you huddle in the rags of YOUR sexist, antiquated, tatterdemalion morality.
@Syko--Sorry that your ex hit on your mom. But is that worse than your girlfriend sleeping with your dad? See, I have an ex-girlfriend, extremely smart and accomplished, now divorced mommy. She does Good Things for endangered children every day. Has done so for years and years, for far less money than she could make outside gov. She also finally admitted, more or less, that she slept with my dad back in the day. She always had a wandering eye and probably did cheat on her first husband (witnessed) and admitted that she did cheat on her second. Slut or saint?
Ye bearing blankets: How bogus can you get? I carefully worded my (well-backed by sociological research) assertion that lack of sexual fidelity is a UNISEX issue, and I was attacked with blankets. That's your need to claim a blanket indictment in order to justify your denial. What I said still stands. Look around your virtual community. See the women you love and respect the most in the world? Many of them are "cheating." If you have a problem with that, look in a mirror.
And Ida, you're the worst, because you know better. You know I'm not an Ivy grad. Neither of us are. You know I'm just hauling up a gruesome truism of American gender/sexual politics that no one wants to admit, namely that sexual infidelity really is a unisex issue, and speaking truth to power.
If you doubt that women stray just as much as men, I direct you to the mountain of sociological and genetic research proving otherwise. And if that doesn't convince you then I'm sure you'll have no problem cheering on your local Santorum sharia when it inflicts a public clitorectomy on your daughter as punishment for her unintentionally sleeping unchaperoned in the same hemisphere of the globe with a single man.
I am most definitely not trying to manipulate the responses with an ulterior motive. In fact, I made a reference to astroturf PR hacks possibly posting to defend their clients recently.
Wow - really? The original questions was - if YOU are married and your spouse cheats do YOU stay together - with kids, sans kids? Most people actually answered with their opinion, not knocking others.
Even with species that are documented "pair-bonders", there are cheaters. Although there is a tons of variation in culture, Humans generally do "pair-bond" - however there is cheaters. "Pair-bonding" is not very common in species with social order. Birds overall probably have the highest incidence of it.
As for ME, I chose to make it official, after 12 years of unofficial "pair-bonding". If we cheated on each other, we would leave because the trust would be gone. In 10 years, maybe we will feel different, but I doubt it.
Is my way to live life with another the right way? F*ck no, but it works for me. I find it interesting to read how other people go about it.
Why do people keep bringing up animals? We're not animals. The one thing humans have that animals do not is something called cognition. If you think your excuse for cheating is because "ALL ANIMALS CHEAT! IT'S HUMAN NATURE!," you need to go pick up a book.
As for B. Profane, when did anybody say women don't cheat or that men cheat more than women? You're arguing with nobody here, so I'm lost. I believe that both men and women cheat. I'd have to specifically look at statistics as far as who cheats more, but neither sex is innocent. However, not ALL men and women cheat. That's where your argument becomes moot. Didn't anyone ever tell you the dangers of speaking in absolutes?
Jolene jolene: are we bacteria, fungus, or plants? We are animals. And not all animals cheat. Many animals don't have the social structure of monogamy. In a polyamory there is no cheating. Look at wolves, for example. Most primates are not monogamous either.
I choose monogamy without cheating, but obviously not everyone else does.
I can't answer this question because, as far s i know, it hasn't happened.
Maybe we could cover from a one time mistake but not a full on relationship on either side.
What is emotional cheating? Longing for someone? Chatting with someone you are attracted to or actual sex talk?
It is all confusing and i hope i don't have to deal with it.
I am married with kids and, frankly, i think marriage is an antiquated notion. In hindsight we should never have had to get the "piece of paper" but, yes, the "piece of paper" has made me think twice before being a drama queen and leaving because i was feeling neglected and pissed, rather i stayed and worked it out. Since the "piece of paper" was obtained, witnessed, signed etc. I am completely committed.
I "cheated" on a lover that was not exclusive when i was young but never again. Cheating is too complicated. I would rather just leave or be left.
I can't answer this question because, as far s i know, it hasn't happened.
Maybe we could cover from a one time mistake but not a full on relationship on either side.
What is emotional cheating? Longing for someone? Chatting with someone you are attracted to or actual sex talk?
It is all confusing and i hope i don't have to deal with it.
I am married with kids and, frankly, i think marriage is an antiquated notion. In hindsight we should never have had to get the "piece of paper" but, yes, the "piece of paper" has made me think twice before being a drama queen and leaving because i was feeling neglected and pissed, rather i stayed and worked it out. Since the "piece of paper" was obtained, witnessed, signed etc. I am completely committed.
I "cheated" on a lover that was not exclusive when i was young but never again. Cheating is too complicated. I would rather just leave or be left.
I don't think think this is a black and white issue, there are so many shades of grey. There is no right or wrong answer, there is only each individual's personal tolerances.
For some, infidelity is an absolute deal-breaker, the wrongest wrong that you can inflict on your partner. For them, even a single transgression is justification for dismantling the family unit, and for those people, that may be the right choice because they simply cannot forgive.
For others, they can be realistic about the fact that transgressions DO happen. They happen every day, in fact. As I type this, millions are cheating around the world. Their reasons for doing so as varied as their DNA. For many, occasional infidelity based on physical need can be overlooked or forgiven. A lot of people feel that they have put too much effort into their marriages and mutual child-rearing to split up, and for them, that may be the right answer.
My point is only that we can't judge each others choices. This debate really is a North American one, and that does have bearing on this conversation, even if the person who pointed that out said other things that enflamed some of you. In many other cultures, especially European and South American, there is an acceptance of the fact that sometimes happily married people will seek physical comfort outside of the boundaries of the marriage. Its one reason that no other nations in the world rival the divorce rate of Canadians and Americans.
If you feel hurt and disrespected by your partners actions, and you can't forgive them, walking away from the relationship may be a better choice than to stay with a person who you feel bitterness and animosity towards. That doesn't mean that people who make the decision to work things out are wrong. Ultimately it comes down to whether there is respect and empathy towards the feelings of your partner and other family members. If it's present, the relationship may be salvageable. If it is absent, the relationship isn't worth continuing, whether or not cheating took place.
I'm expecting my first child in 2 months, and I truly don't think I'd necessarily leave my fiancee if he were to seek out a bit of strange a few years down the road. I hope that if I ever did the same, that we would have enough love and respect for each other to handle the outcome in a mature, caring manner. I do think it would be a deal breaker for him, though, and that knowledge will be what governs my actions, as I wouldn't want to cause him pain.
The bottom line is that until you find yourself in that situation (which many people here no doubt have), you don't know how you'll react. Whatever feels right for you and your family, is the right choice.
I misspoke. I did not mean in the most literal sense of the word "animal," luckylass. Yes, humans are technically animals. The sentence you just said--you choose monogamy--is my exact point. The mental capacity of humans is far greater than, say, wolves or primates. There are ways that human and animal (non-human) cognition overlap, such as the ability to use tools or navigate using landmarks, however, there are key differences and gaps between human and animal cognition that make humans uniquely human. Animals for the most part act on instinct, and humans have the ability to recognize physical and emotional suffering of another human being and its cause. Humans have the ability to make conscious decisions, unlike animals. And that is why non-humans are oftentimes polygamous and humans have the ability to be monogamous simply because they CHOOSE not to be. Don't quote me on this and I'd always appreciate further research and info, but this is my understanding from years of anthropology and sociology classes. :)
@B.Profane, thanks for the story and the reply, I wasn't trying to fit you anywhere. You went on and on and on, and never answered the fucking question!
So I shall dismiss you whilst I huddle in my rags of reason, civility, compassion and clear thought. And my morals are in fine condition thank you very much.
Hypotheticals are so hard for me to answer, but I don't think I could handle it if my spouse cheated, and yes, we do have a child.
ReplyDeleteThat said. Bitch please. My husband would never run around on me. He straight up said he could only handle one woman, which is moi and my goddess ways.
I have yet to hear an honorable excuse for cheating, sorry. I am not with it, once the trust is gone, so am I.
ReplyDeleteI did in my first marriage and I made it VERY clear I absolutely positively will NOT do it again with my current husband. I learned my dumb ass lesson.
ReplyDeleteMy ex and I have a kid and my new husband I and have a kid. So the answer doesn't change. Just no.
As the dearly departed Whitney would have said: Hell to the No. And I don't care if kids are involved.
ReplyDeleteI think I'd split, that would be so hard to deal with. Trust is everything, trust that they wouldn't intentionally cause you harm. If you lose that, what do you have?
ReplyDeleteNo. That's all. If he can't keep his pants zipped when he's out of the house, then he can't come back in the house. The kids will adjust.
ReplyDeleteI'd like to think I could somehow get past the infidelity through couples therapy, and see the big picture instead of focussing on the indiscretion. But I doubt I could ever forgive, much less forget!
ReplyDeleteI cheated on my serious boyfriend nearly 20 years ago and I saw the damage that does. Don't do it!
Also, my dad cheated on my mom for decades, and when I was in my late teens I witnessed it myself. Motherfucker broke my heart and my mom's too.
I've never been cheated on (as far as I know), so it's tough to answer a hypothetical without ever having been in the situation. With that being said, I've told my husband that I don't tolerate cheating AT ALL. And that I would, in the most literal sense, murder him if he ever did. But I'm pretty confident he never would anyway. :) I know a lot of people don't THINK their spouse would ever cheat on them, but in so many ways still don't trust them. I can say with certainty that I completely and totally trust my husband. That's why I married him.
ReplyDeleteAbsolutely not and my answer would not change if I have kids. I told my husband early on if he wanted out, just tell me and it would be amicable. I am just not that strong of a person and I would never be able to get over that level of deception.
ReplyDeleteA one time indiscretion, have a good heart to heart talk and go to councelling. Try to work it out.
ReplyDeleteRepetitive cheating, change the locks.
My husband and I had a long talk about this before we even got married. No, neither one of us would cheat. If we did, marriage is over. Both of us have experienced it and neither one of us wants to hurt the other or ourselves in that manner.
ReplyDeleteI think that the greatest joy a person can know is a mutually trusting, very intimate relationship. So by cheating, you're only hurting yourself, denying yourself.
ReplyDeleteIf you don't want that and want to cheat, then get out of your marriage.
If either one of us cheated, that would be it.
I have never been married and I don't have children.
ReplyDeleteI am in a long time relationship though. Black and white answers seem to be a little murky. If he wanted to have someone else, I would want him to tell me about it. It might be ok.
I however would end things outright if I wanted to be with anyone else.
Best quote ever on this is from Johnny Depp
"If you are in love with two people and don't know who to choose pick the second. If you were happy with the first, you wouldn't have gotten involved with the second."
I think most couples have this talk.
ReplyDeleteWe've been married 23 years, I might handle a one night fling sort of thing. An affair, NO. I told him long ago if he felt he needed someone else , just tell me, I'll leave or he can leave.
We have kids but if he cheats we are gone...and his money too!
ReplyDeleteI'm with the rest of you on the issue of trust. Once trust is broken for me, peace out. As for kids, I believe it's better to break up than to have kids endure a bad marriage. Staying together for the kids isn't healthy.
ReplyDeleteThis is the question that incites so much hypocrisy from women that it almost makes a mockery of the idea of pair-bonding as intrinsic to human nature. I had so many women hit on me when I was married. Not sluts but highly educated professional colleagues and friends. They looked right past the ring on my finger. They were not man-thieves either.
ReplyDeleteI have had so many girlfriends and women friends talk about their affairs. Everyone "cheats."
So I say this with love, but...bitches please, get off your high horses. Puritan morality is a huge lie, always had been.
No...kids or no kids. Once a spouse cheats, you'll never forgive them (or at least forget) and that anomosity will carry over into your treatment of that person. You don't want the kids to be around that or to see the constant paranoia or passive agressive behavior...always wondering if and when they'll do it again. It will tear you a part. Also, you don't want to chance catching any diseases.
ReplyDelete"...And his money too!"
ReplyDeleteI hope he cheats on you, beats you broke in the divorce and gets sole custody. Seriously, grow up. They're your children, not ransome leverage.
Uh... B.Profane, all those women you say were hitting on you - they WERE sluts, and they WERE "man-thieves". You said it yourself, they knew you were married and didn't care.
ReplyDeleteJust because they were "highly educated" with careers doesn't make them any less whorish.
Not everybody cheats. Maybe you just need to find a better class of people to hang around with.
Neither of us believe in monogamy (though there are rules)
ReplyDeleteTwo things I told my husband when we met. (1) honesty and (2) monogamous. Both agree to it. Also told him their is no excuse if he was to cheat. Once he does he is out the door, no forgiveness. He is not the cheating type, but at the time I felt he needed to know how I felt if we were to be in a serious relationship.
ReplyDeleteI can never understand why some people get married if they are going to continue cheating on your love one.
I hold a degree from an elite, "name" institution, am highly successful in my field, earn in the top 5% bracket, etc. My female contemporaries are the same. Lawyers, academics, executives. They're accomplished, mature people, smart enough not to hew to some antiquated Puritan morality. They're not sluts.
ReplyDeleteDating lots of divorced moms, I have seen the other side as well. I have held to many crying mommies to side with sleazeball dads who dump their wives for a younger model, breaking up the home, forcing the sale of the house from underneath the kids, etc. But that's a far different thing.
@B.Profane -- sounds like you've had some gnarly experiences with women in the past.
ReplyDeleteBut you know what? That's not our problem. Sure sounds like *you're* the bitch who needs to grow up.
@B.Profane
ReplyDeleteAre you serious?
You're contradicting yourself at every paragraph.
And if you and your colleagues truly believe that academic qualifications and salary exempts you from being a slut when you behave like one, then clearly neither the studying nor the money have given you an ounce of self-respect and self-awareness.
It's amazing the lies people tell themselves...
@ Sylvia, I can't speak for anyone else but we got married to form a family and raise children and we believe that if we had children we were committed to bringing them up in an intact, healthy family. It's not for everyone but it's worked for us for 30+ years
ReplyDelete@B.Profane, your lawyers and smart academics should understand contracts then, which is what a marriage is between two people. To go after someone who you know is married solely for your own thrill is sluttish behavior.
ReplyDeleteAS for you, why so many divorced moms? Did you think they would be easy if you gave them a shoulder to cry on?
Puritan morality? How about just some moral ethics period. Being smart, or having a degree from a "name" institution, or having a high earning percentage, does not make you a good or moral person. It can't be bought or taught.
As soon as you find out you partner is cheating, it is over. You will never be able to trust them again. When he says that he and the guys are going out, you will wonder if he is really meeting up with some other woman. My answer is the same if you have or don't have any kids.
ReplyDeleteNo. No. And two more no's for live-ins. There are too many better guys out there to put up with that. Just leave already of you have wander-peen so bad. That's what I do. And especially if you have kids - although I do not and never will. Kids need to know this is not normal acceptable behavior and it has severe consequences.
ReplyDeleteNo and No.
ReplyDeleteSame old, same old, and American women wonder why:
ReplyDelete--Half of them end up divorced, many more than once
--After 35 it's so hard to find a good guy interested in a LTR
--Vibrators are being advertised on mainstream TV
It's a good thing that gay marriage is becoming the norm 'cuz hetero marriage will sleep with the fishes at the rate things are going.
Thirty years married here. I would easily forgive a roll in the hay. My heart would break if he fell in love with another woman, though.
ReplyDeleteEmotional fidelity is the real key. Not that I didn't feel a little jealous when my wife was away on business with the handsome partner from her law firm.
ReplyDeleteI kind of agree with amazonblue here. I think people are allowed to make a mistake, albeit some mistakes are bigger than others. It's hard to go back to someone who betrayed your trust and not have it constantly hanging over your head, but if you make the effort to forgive and move on, you can , if that's what you want. But if it happens AGAIN after that...in the unforgettable words of Joaquin Phoenix; BYE! GOOD!
ReplyDeleteI've been married almost 17 years, and I can't say that a one time infidelity would cause me to kick him out, but I don't think you really ever know what you'd do until it really happens. Hopefully, I'll never have to find out what I would do. I do know that it would absolutely be a deal breaker for my husband if I ever cheated.
ReplyDeleteFor some couples I know where cheating has not broken up the marriage, it was usually a case of one partner (in both cases that I know of, it was the wife) just lost all interest in sex even though they still loved their spouse. If a man goes without sex long enough, he will stray. Same thing for a woman. I can see why they were forgiven in cases like that.
B.Profane--An excellent education and an impressive career don't make the fact that you're a complete piece of shit any less true.
ReplyDeleteNo and No. I'd haul after supergluing his penis to his stomach. I'm vindictive that way.
ReplyDeleteEnjoy spinsterhood, Jolene.
ReplyDeleteThe hypocrisy here is just rank. Of the women you all work with, of the women friends with whom you socialize...your cousins or sisters even...chances are many of them are "cheating."
Statistically, the chances are that the majority of women who have posted responses have strayed and just aren't admitting it. 15% of children born in wedlock in this country were fathered by someone other than the husband.
But don't let that stop you from posting sanctimonious screeds about mutilating men's penises....
B. Profane--You're so bitter and clearly hate women very much that it's kind of sad to even attempt to insult you.
ReplyDelete@B. Profane -- This post began as a hypothetical UNISEX discussion about whether any of us would forgive a spouse for cheating, and you've turned it into a misogynistic indictment against modern women.
ReplyDeleteInteresting.
It's also interesting how you can't resist mentioning the fact that you obtained an Ivy League education whenever you post on this site. Guess what? Many of the people who comment here are doctors, lawyers, professors, entrepreneurs, and people who hold interesting positions within the entertainment industry. I know you view yourself as superior -- believe me, it DEFinitely shows -- but the ONLY person who gives one single solitary shit about where you obtained your degree is YOU.
You come across as such an unbearably pretentious choad on this forum; I shudder to imagine what you might be like in person. I just take solace in the fact that you're just an exceptionally shitty human being, and not really a prime example of your gender.
Fuck off. Seriously.
@B.Profane, I gave you some static about what I think are your female friends sluttish behavior.
ReplyDeleteNow I'm trying to understand...I know you're married, so the question is, if your wife cheated with the handsome partner from her law firm on that business trip, would it break up the marriage?
Are you advocating open marriages?
You said *emotional fidelity is key*, but if there is physical infidelity doesn't that beg the question of fidelity at all?
Did you cheat and not get forgiven?
I just can't tell from your posts which side of this simple question you're on.
thanks for that blanket indictment, B.Profane.
ReplyDeleteI have never cheated on a partner in 25 years of having serious boyfriends. Not once, not ever. I've been cheated on several times. I've either walked away or not really cared and ended up running away later.
In my current relationship...he would have to have fallen out of love with me and in love with someone else. And gone completely mad. So there would be no point in staying together. We don't have children. It would break me though.
B. Profane, you mock our "blanket" statements and then you insist all women cheat.
ReplyDeleteI was married 17 years and I did not cheat. I trusted my husband and would have sworn to you that he didn't either. Then after the divorce (for reasons other than cheating) they all came out of the woodwork, he'd been banging all my female friends for years. He even tried putting moves on my mother, who didn't tell me because she didn't want to "cause problems" and have me end up a single mother like she was. I don't really date any more, tired of the chaos, but when I did, I never knowingly had anything to do with married men. I'm not trying to be sanctimonious, I'm just trying to point out that you can't paint all women with the same brush, and that there are probably more out there like me than there are educated whores who come on to married men.
He cheats, he's gone. End of discussion. I don't play that.
ReplyDeleteI guess it would depend on the circumstances. I don't believe in marriage, anyway. It's a sham for the majority of people. And too many aren't sexually faithful to their spouses. Why the pretense? We're in a different world today. Women don't have to be stuck in bad marriages anymore like they have been for centuries. People change and grow apart. I do love seeing old couples who grow together, though, but that's all too rare.
ReplyDeleteAt least people in open marriages are honest - to a point. The truth is, open marriages aren't going to last, either, because if you're "out there", the odds of finding someone more compatible increase.
In other words, I know nothing.
I made quite sure my husband knew where I stood on fidelity before we got married-he was on the same page and held the same views. We both know it would be over if we cheated. I have said if he ever does slip, he is to tell me immediately. If he cheated then put his potentially diseased penis in me, he wouldn't have one by the time I was through. We couldn't have children, so I can't answer that one.
ReplyDeleteMaggie, what are your rules?
Finally, can we please stop calling each other names?
I made quite sure my husband knew where I stood on fidelity before we got married-he was on the same page and held the same views. We both know it would be over if we cheated. I have said if he ever does slip, he is to tell me immediately. If he cheated then put his potentially diseased penis in me, he wouldn't have one by the time I was through. We couldn't have children, so I can't answer that one.
ReplyDeleteMaggie, what are your rules?
Finally, can we please stop calling each other names?
@feraltart -- I'm not proud of the fact that I resorted to name-calling. I guess it was the fact that we were all labeled ''bitches'' pretty early on in the thread with little prior provocation that spurred me on.
ReplyDeleteI can understand people responding to name calling by returning serve Ida. I have just noticed in general that the level of discussion on the blog has degenerated from the high standard we long-term readers have been spoiled with. I have also noticed that we seem to get some new commentators who stir the pot, cause regulars to leave, then are never heard from again. I suspect there are people trying to affect CDAN's popularity. If we ignore them, and not resort to their level, hopefully they will go away.
ReplyDeletePardon the long response, but some questions were asked of me specifically. Let's do the easy part first:
ReplyDelete@Del Riser -- I'm on the side of sanity and reason. Have some perspective, people. If this were Europe we wouldn't be having this dispute. What side am I on? I'm on the side in which at Merkel's funeral both her husband and her secret second husband attend, along with all the children they had together, like Francois Mitterand's.
No, I don't advocate open marriage and I generally find people who do (BTDT) a little creepy. No, I wasn't burned by fidelity transgressions in my one official marriage. Our counselor said that we'd been hit by the perfect storm of external disasters.
And let's stop there. Why are you trying to glean from your assumptions about me personal experience a justification? Seriously, let's abstract the whole issue:
In an alternate universe star-bellied sneetches and plain-bellied-sneetches hump, fall in love and procreate, the latter nominally in the guise of sneetch-lock. (Also, about ten percent of sneetches actually prefer to hump those of their own belly-tude but we'll leave them out for simplicity.)
"Hark ye," cried Yolanda Plain-Belly as she turned off Oprah, "See there, there goeth Clem Star-Belly with Lolita Plain-Belly!"
"See them saunter, see them flirt
See them humping raunchily in the dirt!
See, see, do you see?
Do you see Clem banging a belly that ain't me?
Oh, that slut! Oh that Clem!
Their fault is obviously the perfidy of men!
By nature a belly should be smooth and true.
And if it ain't that means he's cheatin' on you!"
Etc, etc. Stop trying to fit me into a pigeonhole that conveniently allows you to dismiss me whilst you huddle in the rags of YOUR sexist, antiquated, tatterdemalion morality.
@Syko--Sorry that your ex hit on your mom. But is that worse than your girlfriend sleeping with your dad? See, I have an ex-girlfriend, extremely smart and accomplished, now divorced mommy. She does Good Things for endangered children every day. Has done so for years and years, for far less money than she could make outside gov. She also finally admitted, more or less, that she slept with my dad back in the day. She always had a wandering eye and probably did cheat on her first husband (witnessed) and admitted that she did cheat on her second. Slut or saint?
Ye bearing blankets: How bogus can you get? I carefully worded my (well-backed by sociological research) assertion that lack of sexual fidelity is a UNISEX issue, and I was attacked with blankets. That's your need to claim a blanket indictment in order to justify your denial. What I said still stands. Look around your virtual community. See the women you love and respect the most in the world? Many of them are "cheating." If you have a problem with that, look in a mirror.
And Ida, you're the worst, because you know better. You know I'm not an Ivy grad. Neither of us are. You know I'm just hauling up a gruesome truism of American gender/sexual politics that no one wants to admit, namely that sexual infidelity really is a unisex issue, and speaking truth to power.
If you doubt that women stray just as much as men, I direct you to the mountain of sociological and genetic research proving otherwise. And if that doesn't convince you then I'm sure you'll have no problem cheering on your local Santorum sharia when it inflicts a public clitorectomy on your daughter as punishment for her unintentionally sleeping unchaperoned in the same hemisphere of the globe with a single man.
I am most definitely not trying to manipulate the responses with an ulterior motive. In fact, I made a reference to astroturf PR hacks possibly posting to defend their clients recently.
Sucks to be wrong, don't it?
Wow - really? The original questions was - if YOU are married and your spouse cheats do YOU stay together - with kids, sans kids? Most people actually answered with their opinion, not knocking others.
ReplyDeleteEven with species that are documented "pair-bonders", there are cheaters. Although there is a tons of variation in culture, Humans generally do "pair-bond" - however there is cheaters. "Pair-bonding" is not very common in species with social order. Birds overall probably have the highest incidence of it.
As for ME, I chose to make it official, after 12 years of unofficial "pair-bonding". If we cheated on each other, we would leave because the trust would be gone. In 10 years, maybe we will feel different, but I doubt it.
Is my way to live life with another the right way? F*ck no, but it works for me. I find it interesting to read how other people go about it.
" If this were Europe we wouldn't be having this dispute."
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry...what?
Why do people keep bringing up animals? We're not animals. The one thing humans have that animals do not is something called cognition. If you think your excuse for cheating is because "ALL ANIMALS CHEAT! IT'S HUMAN NATURE!," you need to go pick up a book.
ReplyDeleteAs for B. Profane, when did anybody say women don't cheat or that men cheat more than women? You're arguing with nobody here, so I'm lost. I believe that both men and women cheat. I'd have to specifically look at statistics as far as who cheats more, but neither sex is innocent. However, not ALL men and women cheat. That's where your argument becomes moot. Didn't anyone ever tell you the dangers of speaking in absolutes?
Jolene jolene: are we bacteria, fungus, or plants? We are animals. And not all animals cheat. Many animals don't have the social structure of monogamy. In a polyamory there is no cheating. Look at wolves, for example. Most primates are not monogamous either.
ReplyDeleteI choose monogamy without cheating, but obviously not everyone else does.
I can't answer this question because, as far s i know, it hasn't happened.
ReplyDeleteMaybe we could cover from a one time mistake but not a full on relationship on either side.
What is emotional cheating? Longing for someone? Chatting with someone you are attracted to or actual sex talk?
It is all confusing and i hope i don't have to deal with it.
I am married with kids and, frankly, i think marriage is an antiquated notion. In hindsight we should never have had to get the "piece of paper" but, yes, the "piece of paper" has made me think twice before being a drama queen and leaving because i was feeling neglected and pissed, rather i stayed and worked it out. Since the "piece of paper" was obtained, witnessed, signed etc. I am completely committed.
I "cheated" on a lover that was not exclusive when i was young but never again. Cheating is too complicated. I would rather just leave or be left.
I can't answer this question because, as far s i know, it hasn't happened.
ReplyDeleteMaybe we could cover from a one time mistake but not a full on relationship on either side.
What is emotional cheating? Longing for someone? Chatting with someone you are attracted to or actual sex talk?
It is all confusing and i hope i don't have to deal with it.
I am married with kids and, frankly, i think marriage is an antiquated notion. In hindsight we should never have had to get the "piece of paper" but, yes, the "piece of paper" has made me think twice before being a drama queen and leaving because i was feeling neglected and pissed, rather i stayed and worked it out. Since the "piece of paper" was obtained, witnessed, signed etc. I am completely committed.
I "cheated" on a lover that was not exclusive when i was young but never again. Cheating is too complicated. I would rather just leave or be left.
Holy shit, DRAMZ!
ReplyDeleteI don't think think this is a black and white issue, there are so many shades of grey. There is no right or wrong answer, there is only each individual's personal tolerances.
For some, infidelity is an absolute deal-breaker, the wrongest wrong that you can inflict on your partner. For them, even a single transgression is justification for dismantling the family unit, and for those people, that may be the right choice because they simply cannot forgive.
For others, they can be realistic about the fact that transgressions DO happen. They happen every day, in fact. As I type this, millions are cheating around the world. Their reasons for doing so as varied as their DNA. For many, occasional infidelity based on physical need can be overlooked or forgiven. A lot of people feel that they have put too much effort into their marriages and mutual child-rearing to split up, and for them, that may be the right answer.
My point is only that we can't judge each others choices. This debate really is a North American one, and that does have bearing on this conversation, even if the person who pointed that out said other things that enflamed some of you. In many other cultures, especially European and South American, there is an acceptance of the fact that sometimes happily married people will seek physical comfort outside of the boundaries of the marriage. Its one reason that no other nations in the world rival the divorce rate of Canadians and Americans.
If you feel hurt and disrespected by your partners actions, and you can't forgive them, walking away from the relationship may be a better choice than to stay with a person who you feel bitterness and animosity towards.
That doesn't mean that people who make the decision to work things out are wrong. Ultimately it comes down to whether there is respect and empathy towards the feelings of your partner and other family members. If it's present, the relationship may be salvageable. If it is absent, the relationship isn't worth continuing, whether or not cheating took place.
I'm expecting my first child in 2 months, and I truly don't think I'd necessarily leave my fiancee if he were to seek out a bit of strange a few years down the road. I hope that if I ever did the same, that we would have enough love and respect for each other to handle the outcome in a mature, caring manner. I do think it would be a deal breaker for him, though, and that knowledge will be what governs my actions, as I wouldn't want to cause him pain.
The bottom line is that until you find yourself in that situation (which many people here no doubt have), you don't know how you'll react. Whatever feels right for you and your family, is the right choice.
I misspoke. I did not mean in the most literal sense of the word "animal," luckylass. Yes, humans are technically animals. The sentence you just said--you choose monogamy--is my exact point. The mental capacity of humans is far greater than, say, wolves or primates. There are ways that human and animal (non-human) cognition overlap, such as the ability to use tools or navigate using landmarks, however, there are key differences and gaps between human and animal cognition that make humans uniquely human. Animals for the most part act on instinct, and humans have the ability to recognize physical and emotional suffering of another human being and its cause. Humans have the ability to make conscious decisions, unlike animals. And that is why non-humans are oftentimes polygamous and humans have the ability to be monogamous simply because they CHOOSE not to be. Don't quote me on this and I'd always appreciate further research and info, but this is my understanding from years of anthropology and sociology classes. :)
ReplyDelete...because they CHOOSE *to be...
ReplyDeleteGotcha Jolene! We are totally on the same page:)
ReplyDelete@B.Profane, thanks for the story and the reply, I wasn't trying to fit you anywhere.
ReplyDeleteYou went on and on and on, and never answered the fucking question!
So I shall dismiss you whilst I huddle in my rags of reason, civility, compassion and clear thought. And my morals are in fine condition thank you very much.