Overnight, more than 1,000 police in New York stormed Zuccotti Park and evicted all the demonstrators, some of whom had been there since September. Mayor Bloomberg of New York said it was because it had turned into a health hazard. I think he just got tired of the world focusing their eyes on his city and the protest so he decided to bring in the police, clear out the protesters and is only going to allow them back without tents or sleeping bags. Since no one wants to spend a New York winter night without some kind of shelter, he basically ended the protest. Oh, sure there will be some noises and little minor tremors, but he ended it. With New York ending their protest, it will not be long before police clear out protesters from every city probably using the same excuse and mandating the same rules for later.
Health hazard - sure, but the holidays are coming and NYC will be packed with visitors. That's the real reason it was time for the protesting to end.
ReplyDeleteSt. Louis has been making legal to evict their Occupy people for the past few days. They have arrested a few people, but haven't kicked everyone out of Kiener Plaza yet. The Occupy St. Louis people have been pretty polite and low key so far -- it'll be interesting to see if they keep that stance.
ReplyDeleteAnyone who has gone anywhere near that site knows it was a health hazard.
ReplyDeleteNot sure why OWS should be entitled to special rules other groups of protesters don't get. They were violating all kinds of city ordinances, so I'm fine with this.
OWS has a court order allowing them to return: http://news.yahoo.com/court-order-allows-occupy-wall-st-protesters-back-135130959.html
ReplyDeleteThis morning I cut through the park where my city's Occupy people are. For the most part I don't care but one guy has a tent apart from the rest and he's got... scarecrows for lack of a better word, around his area. They are disturbing as hell.
ReplyDeleteIn February, this park hosts a major tourist even that for whatever reason, people come from around the world to see. It's a huge boost to the city's economy and it's a win for everyone so they're gonna have to go.
They want to stay the winter and think they can but when the sun goes down and it drops to -20 (celcius), good luck with that.
In Philly there were a few sexual assualts that took place where our OWS is. To me when it gets to that point, something has to be done.
ReplyDeleteThey made their point and most people are starting to think they are just more of a nuisance than anything else. Like, I get their point. But I've busted my ass since I was 16 for everything I have. I got a college education because I wanted one and valued one. Not because it was the thing to do after high school and I wasn't drunk for 75% of it. I don't want the government to take from the wealthy and give to me. I didn't earn that.
The whole thing kind of irks me. I don't subscribe to corporate greed, and I do believe that that is a small percent of people (1%) but don't be assholes because of it while you camp out with your iphones, video cameras and American Apparel clothes.
The most ridiculous part to me, is that it was started by Canadians, not even Americans. It just goes to show how fast some sectors of this country will get sucked into something in order to be part of it. But I hope they realize, while they are the "99%", they are also the 1% because while other people may agree with their purpose, very few will actually participate in what they are doing because its not going to be horribly effective. And I think alot of people see that.
@ Bnl1016 - I beg to differ. To my knowledge, it was started in New York. OWS stands for Occupy Wall Street. There is no Wall Street in Canada - there is Bay Street, in Toronto, which is the financial equivalent.
ReplyDeleteI also think this movement has gotten out of hand. In a lot of cities there have been sexual and physical assaults, overdoses, and a few deaths.
In some cities, the protesters are affecting the daily lives of area residents and businesses.
If people want to protest, which is their absolute right, I think they should come out each day and do so. But turning parks into encampments is just not cool for the long term.
@Surfer - That's not what I meant. Geographically, yes it was definitely started in NYC, but it was by a Canadian anit-consumerist group called Adbusters. Not by Americans.
ReplyDelete@ Bnl1016 - Your lucky you have a college degree but I too have been working non-stop since 16 yrs (am now close to 40) at law firms. Yet despite being full time employed, I cant afford to go to college plus according to financial aide i make too much to qualify. So if I sacrifice a place to live or meals, then I can afford to go to school.
ReplyDeleteOWS has a valid point that while the banks were bailed out, students and poor people cant be bailed and have their home foreclosed.
I thought this was America and you have the right to voice your dissent.
If in the 60s, if the police/government were allowed to break up the civil rights protests, many people would not have the freedom and rights they have today.
@Bnl1016
ReplyDeleteI couldn't agreewith you more with everything you have said.
@Borg Queen - Well that's the thing. I'm not saying they don't have a valid point. But I think they are going about it 100% the wrong way and being hypocritical while they do it with all their fancy gadgets and clothes. As I've said, I've seen people at these protests wearing American Apparel. They wear $50 hoodies! I buy clothes at Target. I can get the same hoodie for $30 less. So why should I feel bad for these particular protestors when the people who really, genuinely need the help are the ones, like you, still at home busting their ass to care for themselves and their families. The people that genuinely need help aren't camping out in the park.
ReplyDeleteAnd my college education didn't come free. I also had zero financial aide. But I DID sacrifice a place to live and how I lived. I lived in a shit hole, ate way too much Ramen and Easy-mac and went without for alot of things. And I'm still paying off my loans. But for 4 years out of my life, I just did it. Because I wanted it that bad and nothing was going to stop me.
@Borg Queen - I agree with you. Major companies and banks got a free walk while people who had lived in their homes for years were being kicked out. There was no balance.
ReplyDeleteNow, having said that, I believe that protesting has an invisible line. If you cross it, you go from making a point to being a pain in the ass. Several, not all but several locations had crossed that line.
Hey, I think Dolph Charney is disgusting, but at least that $50 American Apparel hoodie is MADE IN AMERICA by a worker who was treated well. Also, I get tired of hearing about how everyone in an OWS encampment is some slumming yuppie. That's not the case, and you know it.
ReplyDeleteI should also mention - I got my college education as an adult. Not fresh out of high school. I worked for several years after high school, saw what was out there and then realized how badly I wanted and needed that degree for what i wanted out of life.
ReplyDeleteSorry, make that "Dov Charney." The sentiment stands, however.
ReplyDelete@sunnyhorse - but isnt that part of the problem? if you buy American you have to pay at the very least a 100% inflated rate? Isn't that what this whole thing is going against? American greed? Why we have to pay double to support our own economy?
ReplyDeleteIn one of the arrest pictures I saw a girl that was carrying an $800 purse. I'm not saying ALL the protestors are doing this, but the ones that are are a) more visible and b) the majority and therefore making the others look discredited in the process
I agreed with the OWS kids in that I can't believe how Goldman Sachs and the other big banks who essentially caused this crisis have had no repercussions. AIG was forced to fail, everyone else got out pretty much unscathed (or sold, or bailed out).
ReplyDeleteWhat pisses me off the most about the bailout is that we didn't regulate how the money could be spent, so literally billions of it went to bonuses. BONUSES. To people already making millions.
THAT is what made me support OWS at the beginning. The fact that it devolved into a bunch of muddled thinking and action is regrettable.
@Fiesty - I agree 100% with what you just said. That's what I mean by I don't disagree that OWS has/had a valid point. They just went about it the wrong way to get that point across and now its so far past their original point that its become pointless.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI agree that the thinking has become muddled. To me, the problem is that the banks privatized profit but publicized risks. Their set-up was, if we make a lot of money, our employees and investors keep it, if we lose money, the public bails us out.
ReplyDeleteI feel the same way about people who intentionally f*ck with their health - riding motorcycles without a helmet is a good example - and then expect society to pick up the tab for a lifetime of rehab and disability payments. Privatize pleasure, publicize risk. It's not fair.
We have a few protesters camping in Calgary. They do not have to be evicted - winter is coming, and they will all move back into their parents houses.
ReplyDeleteLast week, city council met to discuss how and when to remove the "protesters", and the "protesters" "protested" this by....HAVING A MEDITATION CIRCLE ON THE FLOOR INSIDE CITY HALL.
That is how you get taken seriously, people!
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ReplyDeleteI agree with everything @Bnl1016 has said above.
ReplyDeleteI've been on my own financially since 14, grew up in a trailer and we got food stamps.
I put myself 100% through BA, MBA, and PhD. My husband has a similar story and started/runs his own business. We just laugh at these OWS kids--we've NEVER had the time for something so silly and pointless (and btw, what IS their point? Their agenda? Their goals?) because we've always been working too hard. And yes, we were willing to do any kind of work, no matter how hard or not cool, to get by.
The irony that seems to escape these OWS kids is that they themselves, by virtue of being American, are already the world's 1%. Stop whining and get to work.
Get to work? I've been looking for work forEVER.
ReplyDeleteThe difference between now and when Bnl1016 and figgy went to college is how much things are inflated. The cost of living has gone up, college is insanely priced, and jobs have gone down. I work two jobs and I go to school full time and I still had to move back into my parents house. I respect you, Bnl1016 and understand what you are saying. But these are trying times. And I'm struggling way more now this time through school than I was even three years ago.
ReplyDeleteThe problem with the OWS movement is that there was no central leader. It became fashionable rather than trying to make a change. If they had gone about it the right way, the way MLK did during the civil rights movement, perhaps something would have happened.
In Houston, we have a couple of dozen people, give or take, who hang out at Tranquility Park downtown and harass people. They aren't popular nor are they taken seriously. People come to Houston to work -- it's certainly not for the lovely environment or nice weather! So everyone tells them to eff off and get a job. It's not that difficult to find one here.
ReplyDeleteThese hipster OWS protesters are so dumb -- they don't have any point beyond, "oh, life's unfair and the world owes me a living. Pity poor me." Whatever. Take your stupid knit cap and hoodie and iPad and Kindle back to your parents' house and start combing the want ads. You may think you are like the freedom fighters of the 50's and 60's, but you aren't.
I don't know enough about the Occupy movement to have an opinion so I can't discuss their motives or right or wrong but I'm glad they're doing it. In a very general sense, society neesd that voice of dissent. I don't want to do it but I'm lucky (as are most of us) to live somewhere that allows it.
ReplyDeleteI completely agree with the basic point of the OWS protests, which is corporate greed, especially on the part of banks and the financial sector in this country. The banks are enriching themselves, quite often through illegal/immoral means, but they don't accept any of the risk or responsibility when markets collapse and our economy is thrown into the toilet. Levying a $5 transaction fee on small depositors for something that costs them around 15 cents? Making their greatest profit off those who can least afford it? CEO salaries and bonuses worth many millions when they're laying off low- and mid-level workers, who then can't pay their mortgages or car payments? Despite what some think, that's not a choice people are making. Jobs are scarce, particularly stable, decent paying jobs. I'm incredibly lucky to have one of those jobs; many of my well-educated and highly professional friends are finding themselves in very difficult times because they can't find any kind of job. They all thought it couldn't happen to them. It's a scary economy out there. We have to bring jobs back to the US, which means trying very hard not to buy products made in China. Try it one day. Pretty difficult to find a "Made in America" tag. Part of that is labor cost; but a bigger reason is corporate greed. But that is pretty short-sighted; if you destroy the purchasing power of your largest customer base, pretty soon you have no one who can afford to buy your product. But companies like Ford and GM's biggest emerging market is China. US companies should be, first and foremost, be faithful to the stability of the United States, but sadly, because of short-sighted corporate greed, we are definitely NOT their first priority. OWS has a place and a purpose, and I hope they find a way to make the movement stabilize and grow.
ReplyDelete@jackie - I definitely agree that part of the problem is that these colleges keep raising tuition year after year. but, I'm also only 30. I didn't graduate too long ago (since I started several years after high school), so I'm not too far removed to understand the weight of this. It also peeves me when I get call after call, almost on a nightly basis from my school to ask for donation money. I PAID for my education. PAID you, for a service. Why should I give you more money when you are making your service unaffordable to others? You should have enough money. I just don't get it.
ReplyDeleteI also think you used a good word. Fashionable. That's where the problem came in. People are doing it merely in order to "be a part of history" and not necessarily even knowing the full capacity of the movement.
I think the job crisis is a big problem, too, but that's also different than these people protesting against corporate greed. The 1 million dollar bonuses and stuff like that, inappropriate and unnecessary. No one should receive a bonus larger than most people will see in a lifetime. But that's a different issue than the job crisis. Which brings me back to the American Apparel type companies. Yes, its great to be all-American. Give jobs to needy Americans, but then you make a product that most Americans can't afford? Or at the very least the ones that buy it have no business buying because its out of their means? If you want to pride yourself on being American friendly or revolutionary then find a way to produce something the general American public can afford without furthering the debt problems.
Jackie, college is expensive, I know. But if you live in a metropolitan area, there are usually large state universities that offer a good value for the money. The University of Houston costs about $200 per semester hour. It's not cheap, but it's doable if you sacrifice some luxuries or get financial aid and/or loans. I'm just saying that college doesn't have to mean an expensive private school. I went to a state school and my career never suffered because of it.
ReplyDeleteAgreed, Jackie, college is way more expensive now than it was when I went in the 1980s.
ReplyDeleteI have a perhaps unpopular take on college, though, which is that there's WAY too much importance placed on it. I do realize that a BA/BS is considered a requirement for jobs that, really, do not NEED that kind of education.
And further, the traditional "college education" is a very specific type of book-learning training. Some people love it, but others are equally intelligent but thrive in a different kind of environment (see Howard Gardner's theory of multiple kinds of intelligence). To require everyone to sit through post high school English class or anthropology to do ANY kind of job is ridiculous.
What this has led to is a bunch of bullshit "colleges" that still cost quite a bit but offer very little, which people go to in order to jump through the hoop of saying they have the "college education." These people could much better be spending their time, money, energy elsewhere.
Trade schools, good ones, and non-academic job training, needs to be given more respect.
@Bnl1016 (and others) -
ReplyDeleteI went to school as an adult, too. Worked my tail off with a full schedule, two part-time jobs, and an internship. Lived in a place where the heat only worked half the time (that’d be the half of the year when we needed it) and ate crap. Got out of school and started working immediately. I was the first person in my family who graduated from college. Saved my money, eventually bought a house. Had a kid. Then the recession started, and people in my industry started losing work. Work got slower and slower. More and more difficult to make the mortgage payment… after struggling to keep my home for almost a year and a half (and fighting with the unsympathetic mortgage holder, too), I lost it. Moved in with friends, now I’m here. I’ve been looking for work for three years now. I’ve sold most of my stuff to keep gas in the car, but I still have the clothes I bought when I was doing okay (has shown me the value of a well-made product, BTW), and a couple of the toys. Please don’t pass judgment based on what someone’s wearing, or what’s in their hand. Just because I’m homeless (and I technically am, we’re living in a friend’s rental, rent free, for the time being) doesn’t mean I live on the street, nor do I dress like it. You don’t know their circumstances. I get eyeballed when I go to the state agency to check on our aid.
Also - just because you worked your ass off doesn’t mean you can’t lose everything. It happens faster than you’d think. Bad things can happen to people who have their s--t together.
My point is, we don’t know people’s circumstances just by looking at them. You don’t know the story behind their American Apparel sweatshirt. I think what happened to me and my son is an excellent example of why these protests are happening. Trouble with the economy, trouble with the banks, and now trouble just surviving. American dream down the toilet, starting over from scratch at age 40.
I really liked this article in the Rolling Stones
ReplyDeletehttp://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/taibblog/owss-beef-wall-street-isnt-winning-its-cheating-20111025
As much as I truly enjoy hearing about peoples stories of struggle and success', it is not the same stuggle as what is going on now, things have changed drastically within the last couple of years.
ReplyDeleteIt's about corporate greed, it's about the enormous amounts of money given to corporations to bail them out. It's about regular people being tired and fed up because they can't get help without being on assistance (I might add), so many homes are being forclosed upon, people losing their jobs, etc., etc. Really, the first set of money was given out without financial tracking, money gone, and thank you previous administration and hello rich business persons with whom received huge bonus money.
I get it. It's easy to say that if you did it (because it was hard) that someone else should do the same thing, in these times that is not working.
I feel I should do a disclaimer because there are people protesting who are plain all out nut jobs, unfortunately those people get the media attention and that takes away from the whole situation.
I agree with bnl1016 and other commenters who take a dim view of the Occupation. I also paid for my education and graduated from college in a time when jobs were scarce, and with an impractical liberal arts degree. So I have a lot of sympathy for the Occupiers who are struggling and just starting out in these hard times. But I lost sympathy because they don't seem willing to face facts. Many of them are simply confused and are being led about. Others, the more aggressive element, carry on like society OWES them, like they're entitled to free education, free food, free housing. Oh, hell, no. That does NOT mean I endorse the corporate crony bailouts but the rest of us don't work for you, sonny. (Well, ok, we do but the deal is you work too.) Anyway, the occupiers have gone out of their way to piss the rest of us off with their antics, the crime and filthiness and the tantrums, and the cost of picking up after them, so it's time to go.
ReplyDeleteI live in Oakland, and the occupy thing is a mess! There is no cohesive message, and no one seems to know why they are protesting. Most are just using this as a platform for anarchy.
ReplyDeleteI too went to college as an adult. It was very difficult, and I am still paying my loans. The banks got off easy compared to the rest of us.
Here's the fact that's been lost: there are no guarantees. Just because your parents had things a certain way doesn't mean you will. Just because things were flush a few years ago doesn't mean they will continue to be. In spite of our hard work, my husband and I are struggling now too, very much.
ReplyDeleteThe government NEVER should have bailed out the banks or the auto industries (yay to Ford for not taking it). That was bullshit, and I hope politicians have learned from it.
@EmEyeKay - I actually completely agree. That's not necessarily what I meant. I'm not judging them, but when you are protesting corporate greed, yet waiving around the new iPhone 4s that came out DURING this (which means they had enough to spend anywhere from 300 - 800 on a new phone).... it doens't make sense to me.
ReplyDeleteMy house caught on fire last May - so I too am "homeless" by that definition and my husband and I are living with my parents. So, I get that. 100% completely. Its not a job loss, but to lose everything you owned in the blink of an eye is pretty harrowing. I can say to you, at least you have some of your stuff. I had family heirlooms, meaningful items, priceless items, all gone. And the insurance money you get is nowhere NEAR enough to buy everything you need. We already have and will continue to keep having to put our own money out to try to recuperate everything. But I don't expect help from the wealthy.
I think the entire country is in a state of distress, everyone spent too much when the economy was good including the government and now we are paying for it. I just don't necessarily think taxing the wealthy will solve all the problems like people think it will.
I also think its a slippery slope. A&B got money and bailouts from the government so now C&D are saying "hey what about us?". If they get it then E&F will follow up and say "wait, you gave assistance to A,B,C AND D??? where's mine". once you start giving like that, its hard to stop. then people will start to feel entitled and I think that could potentially worsen the problem in the long run.
i'm not in politics so I don't have good solutions, but I think fixing the job crisis and managing the debt issues are key as well as new laws regarding corporate structure and maybe even pay/bonus caps. but I don't think taking from the wealthy to give to the poor will work in the long run. especially because there's a good portion of the population that will take that assistance and use it on the wrong things. part of the problem is that the government has given TOO much assistance in the past and people abused it, so now for the people who genuinely need it and would use it wisely, there's not much left to give or its too hard to get approved to get it. i think taxing the wealthy is a band-aid fix that will appease people and in 20 years, the government will look back and say "what a disaster". similar to the housing marketing. several years ago they said, hey lets help people get homes. and they did, and now the housing market is a disaster and homes have such low value.
Sis, that's what I was saying when I was starting out, working shitty temp jobs and bartending at night. Didn't help me then and it won't help you either. Stop wasting your time with excuses and feeling sorry for yourself and face the facts: It's not just "corporate" greed; our whole society got a bit greedy at many levels. It's individual people who lived beyond their means and accumulated debt and other liability that they could not pay for. It's a government and government policy that encouraged this sort of braindead zombie entitlement thinking so it could look good. It's people who get useless but expensive liberal arts degrees (guilty!) which have no immediate practical application and value. And, yes, it's people who loiter provocatively in the public square sanctimoniously berating people who are working their asses off.
ReplyDeleteFiggy - Ford didnt take the bailout, but they sure as heck didnt say no to 5,9 billion dollars in low-cost goverment loans. http://www.forbes.com/sites/joannmuller/2011/09/19/ford-looks-hypocritical-in-new-anti-bailout-commercial/
ReplyDeleteJust chiming in to say Bnl is right about the idea for OWS starting in Canada with Adbusters. Which I find incredibly ironic, because in Canada I don't think we have NEARLY the problems with the banking and investment sector that the U.S. has, which is why *I* personally take a dim view of these encampments in our country.
ReplyDeleteThe original message was respectable, but these are glorified squatters now, and they're NOT doing anything to make change. And the straw that broke the camel's back for me was at the Victoria site last weekend when a protester dumped a 2 litre bottle of urine over the head when the worker tried to remove a bicycle from a tree that was a hazard. Seriously? Fuck right off. Now anyone who's doing their job is the enemy?
I co-sign with bnl1016. I lived with my parents while going to school to become a radiologic technologist. I lived in the dorm when I went to college because it was the cheapest way, went to school full time and worked full time 3-11 shift as a tech. Lived with my parents AGAIN to save money, pay down my student loan and get an apartment. Paid back my loans, saved money, bought a condo. Missed out on a lot of drinking parties, vacations and general partying in order to meet my goals. Living a responsible life is not easy and not cheap.
ReplyDeleteWhile I understood OWS' initial goals, it has become a parody of itself. Rapes, murders, assaults, etc, etc. Not having a job doesn't give you the right from stopping someone else from going to THEIR job. Or blocking someone's restaurant to paying customers because they won't give you free food. Those sort of tactics make you a different part of the 1% - the part that keeps others from making a living. They get no sympathy from me.
@ Amartel...I did not "talk" about my situation nor will I, all I stated was my opinion on this matter just like everybody else here. You assume too much.
ReplyDelete@ Bnl1016 I'm sorry you lost your house to fire, that is truly heartbreaking. A couple of years ago we had terrible fires here and we lost several people, many homes and some horses and animals.
I live in the San Francisco bay area, work full time 830-5 M-F and attend CSUEB (a public state college). I also pay my tuition out of pocket because I "make too much" to get the free money. I don't live with my parents, either. It's hard, but it can be done.
ReplyDeleteWhen I walked by the Occupy park today my friend yelled "why don't you occupy a shower!" and we all laughed.
ReplyDeleteHahaha. Hilarious.
But seriously though. I don't have a student loan. I have 2 jobs to pay for school and my apartment and food and clothes and the occasional good time, so what is the fucking problem? Looking for a free ride, are we? Please. The majority of these people are young and able bodied, they just want to give the finger to the "system" because they're so antiestablishment and hip.
Losers.
So many different stories. Some dear friends of mine are a professional working couple. They both make pretty good salaries. Their son was diagnosed with leukemia when he was 9 years old and passed away when he was 10. I used to read to him every day for weeks before he passed, we read anything Pokemon, Star Wars,
ReplyDeleteand finally a book called Come On Seabiscuit, which we never
finished :( After he passed away my friends were anxious to get out of their house and into a new one with a different kind of life that was without the sorrow of their
son's passing, the medical traumas, and they still had an older daughter to raise, etc.
So, the builder who sold their first home to them offered to buy their current home so they could upgrade to a nicer (and more expensive) home, which they did. Fast forward to now, about 8 years later, they have a huge mortgage. They barely make ends meet. They have applied for a reduced interest rate (not reduced principal) and the mortgage
company conveniently "loses" the applications and paperwork. They
have had to submit paperwork three times. Meanwhile, their neighbor
missed about 6 months of payments, which started pre-forclosure proceedings and they were able to save their house with a reduced payment by a whopping $3000.
I count myself (and family) lucky because we are not in foreclosure,
we do not qualify to refinance because our house is not worth it,
we do not qualify for reduced college tuition for our 20 year old son. Yet we are barely making it. My oldest son is in his third year of community college and will transfer out next year, fortunately we are able to afford community college and he "teaches" at the school as a supplemental instructor in Physics which the school pays him a small hourly rate with 10 hours a week. He is a smarty pants Physics, Science
and Math kid, so I'm sure he will be ok (hopefully). It was his
decision to go to Community College so he would have less
in loans when he is done with his college education.
The stories are boundless and there are so many more and no I do not consider my friends or myself "stupid" as stated earlier by someone for being in these situations.
Some of the protesters and the "movement" have turned into a joke, but that is not how it started.
Another thing, I heard an interview this morning where Congress members and their aides have been privy to insider information and have used the information to buy and sell stocks. And, supposedly that is not illegal? Wth?
Dismissing the occupiers as "losers" is taking a very narrow view of the situation.
ReplyDeleteCanada may not have had a banking crisis like the States, but we did have bailouts. 61 billionaires in Canada have a combined wealth of $162 billion. That's a problem. Then you have families like the Desmarais family, which has close personal ties to almost every PM in the last 30 years, as well as Sarkozy. You can dismiss the occupiers all you want or point fingers at the States and say it's not so bad here ... but it's still bad here. There's a lot of inequality, and chalking that up to "just a bunch of lazy hippies that don't want to work" is being willfully ignorant of some serious, systemic problems.
Honestly, I don't want to get up on a soapbox here, but I highly encourage everyone to do a little more research. Chris Hedges has a fantastic article out today about the occupy movement. I really hope you take the time to read it.
ReplyDeleteSorry. I stand by what I said.
ReplyDeleteMy life isn't easy. I'm tired and sometimes I don't wanna do it. Sometimes I want to move back in with my parents and take it easy, but I don't. Know why? Because I'm an adult. And when you're an adult you do things that you don't wanna do to keep going and keep your head above water and if that means having 3 jobs, then that's what it means. The reason I go to school and work so hard is so that I don't end up in a bad sitation like so many find themselves in these days. Perhaps if people stopped living beyond their means they wouldn't find money so tight in turbulent economic times. Do you think our grandparents, circa the Depression, pissed money against a wall? No. Moved into a house they couldn't afford? No.
Also, it's funny how no one has a problem when things are going their way. It's only when the gravy train stops that there is a problem. Do you honestly think corporate greed is a new phenomenon? Heh. No.
And if these occupy people are so bloody interested in making things better, then do something. Living like a homeless in parks is not helping. Know what would help? Fundraising/volunteering with social programs, voting, getting into politics,. All these things are helpful. Living in a park. NOT HELPING.
ReplyDeleteFor all you youngsters who are saying "it can be done" - I don't agree. I know so many people who have been out of work for years, and these are your typical middle-class workers. They can not get work no matter how hard they try. A house around the corner from me is now being rented out, the couple with 2 small kids have had to move in with the wife's mother and all four are sharing one small bedroom. Construction has been hit the hardest, not only the builders but educated architects.
ReplyDeleteCorporations pay NO TAXES, and even get money back from the government. Oh well, I could go on and on.
As for American Apparel being worn - they could have gotten it from GoodWill, ever think of that? That's where I get most of clothes. Also - I will spend more money on something better made than a Target hoodie - it will last years and years. Not having ever worn American Apparel or Target stuff, please note I'm just using those as example, I don't know the quality. But with shoes and stuff, you definitely get what you pay for. I'm lucky I have a fantastic GoodWill around me.
I think it's a shame how many fakers and predators have ruined the movement. But I'm with the real protesters 100% If you look at some of the photos, there's an amazing mix of protesters, black, white, Latino, young and old.
I am thrilled that all of you recently out of college have gotten jobs. But don't think that you are representative of everyone.
You're ignoring so much, though.
ReplyDeletePeople have had the idea of credit beaten into their heads by corporations. It's easy to say "don't live beyond your means" but when you have credit card companies paying postsecondary institutions to allow them on to campuses, and then the universities accepting money for every student the company signs up, that's screwed up. You can barely function without a credit card these days, and people aren't taught about the long-term consequences of credit. That goes for student loans too.
Banks offer people mortgages upon mortgages to people, people who are in dire financial straits, people who are already working more than one job so they can make ends meet. Then the banks turn around and use that money to basically gamble and make the 1 percent even richer. If those guys lose millions of dollars, it hardly affects them. It's really messed up.
I don't think that people are inherently lazy. Yeah, some people are. Some people are just unlucky. All it takes is an accident for some people to lose their jobs. When I was a kid, my mother and father were both laid off within about a month of each other for reasons that had nothing to do with their work performance (one was so an employer could hire her daughter, one was because there was an economic slowdown and a company folded), and that left us almost starving. My parents considered a legal separation just so my mom could collect welfare to feed me and my brothers. Neither of my parents was lazy.
No, corporate greed is nothing new. But it's advanced to such a state that almost every politician is owned by corporate interests. There's no choice between Asshole Candidate 1 and Asshole Candidate 2, so people are increasingly turning away from voting. When the people in power are only beholden to corporation donors and their party, what hope does the average citizen have?
I don't have a credit card, never have. What do people think credit is? Free money that you don't have to pay back?
ReplyDeleteSeriously though, Miranda. I feel awful for some people and I have zero problem supporting them via my tax dollars going towards social programs. I have a problem with these people though.
They want a re-distribution of wealth. You know what that means? Communism. And we know how well that works in reality. And, to be honest, I don't want to give up what I've worked hard for so some people can do nothing and collect my hard earned money. Fuck. That.
I am assuming you are Canadian, so I will say that these Toronto Occupy people on Rememberance Day marched AGAINST remembering our vetrans because people die everyday. Well too bad my great-grandfather fought in both WW1 and WW2 so these people could have the freedom to desicrate what he did for our freedom and country. That is some bullshit as far as I am concerned.
Sorry about my rant. I am getting so annoyed!
Not with you. :)
ReplyDelete@Sue Ellen Mishkey - I admire your attitude and your willingness to work hard for your goals. I'm 60 now - even though times are tough for my husband and myself, we don't regret "doing everything the right way" - makes it a lot easier to sleep at night. Now our house is underwater and because of business slowdown we're having trouble making the mortgage - seeing a lawyer about what to do - and unfortunately, when you're over 60 it's a lot harder to get a job than when you're 30. I think that's why I get so frustrated with the young people who are protesting - GO TO SCHOOL!!! GET AN EDUCATION THAT WILL GIVE YOU A USEFUL CAREER!!! I read about a girl who got a doctorate in music history and has over $50,000 in student loans and blames the loan company for loaning her money. While perhaps it's partly the loan company's fault how did she think she was going to pay back that much money with a doctorate in music history? Get a nursing or medical degree, engineering degree, or go to a vocational school and learn auto mechanics or plumbing. They may not have the glamour of music history, but it's a LOT easier to find a job.
ReplyDeleteSorry - this topic really set me off. Best wishes to you on your studies, Sue Ellen.
I get the frustration with the movement, I do. I'm in Vancouver and in a lot of ways, it's a dog's breakfast. So much in-fighting and "I'm a better activist than you" posturing. That's one of the problems of "the left": it spends an awful lot of time fighting amongst itself. The right has an easier time of finding one talking point and then screaming it until they're blue in the face.
ReplyDeleteI don't agree communism is a solution. The government has proved time and time again that it's not the best organization to deliver certain things. I'm not into a state-run economy. But I'm also not a supporter of this Wild West capitalism that has sprung up. Capitalism only works if a few very specific guidelines are adhered to: perfect information sharing, no monopolies, uniformity of goods, etc. However, the Chicago school of economics ignores these things, and just keeps spouting the old chestnut "privatize everything, deregulate everything, open up trade." Well, that does not work for developing nations. It doesn't work in developed nations, either.
As far as I'm concerned, the way of the world is messed right up and keeps the average citizen trapped in a horrific spiral of debt and wage slavery. I live in a city where the living wage is $18.81 an hour and the minimum wage is $10. That's wrong. And it's not as easy as saying, "If you don't like it, move" (which many people have said to me). I don't have any extra money with which to use. The job markets across Canada are pretty miserable wherever you go, no matter what industry. (Unless you're working in the oil or gas industry.)
I'm definitely not too proud to work a shit job to pay my rent, but where I am right now, I have a steady enough income for me to pay my bills and slowly start paying off my student debt. But I'm basically one paycheque away from homelessness, as is just about everyone I know. I have no safety net, I have no rich relatives to bail me out. I'm not asking for a handout from the government or other people. I just want people to start to wake up that the system is inherently fucked up.
@Sue Ellen - I'm really liking your comments today, and I want to say congrats to you for working as hard as you do. I know it can't be easy, and you must be pooped plenty.
ReplyDeleteThanks SusanB.
ReplyDeleteI grew up very poor and my mom always told me that she wanted better for me than she could give me (not that I didn't have the basics, I did)and the way I was going to do it was through education. Do you think my mom liked working 4 jobs, one of which was working late night at McDonalds so I could go skiiing? No, she didn't. But she did it for me. And it wasn't easy, but she raised a good kid and I would throw down my life for her because of it, so when I see these people protesting it makes me sick.
I wish you the best of luck SusanB because it's really shitty when people do things the "right way" and still get screwed. It's people like you that I have no problem giving money to. You did you part, now let me do mine so you can retire and enjoy the rest of your life.
@Sue Ellen - I agree with you for the most part. I do have a credit card. I use it every month and i pay it off every month. And the point of doing so is to build a solid credit rating so I can get loans, etc. when I do need them.
ReplyDeleteI do think, though, that the credit system is not taught properly so there are kids that think hey, free money, why do i have to pay this off. They don't fully understand how that will effect their future.
But I agree that I don't want to work 60 hour work weeks, bust my ass, just to get taxed more for re-distribution. Not everyone IS equal. And that's the way it has always been. There's always the upper, middle and lower class. I'm not saying its not unfortunate, but there are ways out of bad situations if you look for them and are patient. Its not something you see immediate results with. It can be a long road.
And I'm sure plenty of people do use Good Will or thrift shops. But they aren't picking up their iphones, video cameras and everything there too. That argument would not apply to everyone at these protests. I've seen many people in my city that just prioritize wrong. They'll save the money for the expensive iPad they want, but then complain that they can't afford rent. I'm not saying this is all cases, but there are plenty. There is this mindset with some young people that they should have and need all these things. I got through college without a cell phone because the $100 a month needed to go somewhere else. I didn't have a $1500 iMac, I had a $300 emachine. Sure it was crap, you do get what you pay for BUT its a means to an end and now later in life, I can upgrade. And eventhough I could afford it, I still won't pay that much for a laptop. I still get the $500 Dell.
And I know it was just examples, but for the record, Target makes good clothes and shoes. I have some items I've had for years. Then, as a treat to myself I bought a Victoria's Secret wrap cardigan once, the seam on the wrist came apart after I wore it like 3 times. So, being expensive is not always an indication of the quality. Sometimes you pay more simply for the brand name attached.
My major problem with all that is just that they want to use everything corporations produce, they want to have the money to buy the things these corporations produce, but they want the wealthy to break off some of what they have so that they can afford to buy the things the corporations produce. There's lots of things I can't afford. So I just don't have it. And if I do, I saved up to buy it.
@Surfer
ReplyDeleteThanks. I am tired, but I keep going because it's what I have to do.
@Miranda
I know Vancouver is really expensive to live in, more so than Toronto where I am. And I completely agree with your points about the living wage and the free market system, but it's the best we've got at the moment and at least it allows one the opportunity to elevate their station in life, which I am thankful for. That's why I am doing poli-sci at U of T. I want to make a difference. I want people who can't (for whatever reason) take care of themselves to be taken care of by society as a whole. I want to make a difference.
Truth be told I support their right to protest, and if it were not for people being able to protest and change society I wouldn't be where I am right now. But I draw the line with (most) of these people. They don't get it and I doubt they ever will.
Blogger Sue Ellen Mishkey said...
ReplyDeleteAnd if these occupy people are so bloody interested in making things better, then do something. Living like a homeless in parks is not helping. Know what would help? Fundraising/volunteering with social programs, voting, getting into politics,. All these things are helpful. Living in a park. NOT HELPING.
^^^ Agree with this.
I'm in Vancouver, too, Miranda, and although I see where you're coming from, I simply don't agree. I worked hard in high school, got myself a fancy scholarship for my first year in University, my parents paid my rent in the big city for my first year, and after that I worked to put myself through the rest of my degree. I took a shit ass job the day I graduated, I have now worked my way up to middle-management in that same company, 11 years later. With a liberal arts degree. I have just put down a down payment on my first home in Vancouver. It can be done if we WORK for things. I am grateful to live in a country with basically free health care, subsidized education and a great social system. I have a VERY difficult time feeling sorry for people who don't take the first job they can find and go from there.
You must walk by the Art Gallery site as I do. It is a cesspool of drugs (the whole site reeks of pot) and the city is paying for the power, which irks me as a taxpayer. In addition to the urine dumping incident, these "protesters" are now sitting in the middle of the street, disrupting traffic. Back to Sue Ellen's point that I agreed with above...THEY ARE NOT HELPING. We are so lucky to live here, and all I see is a bunch of ingrates who want things to be given to them instead of working WITHIN the system to make it happen.
I forgot to mention that I made it entirely through school without once applying for a student loan - also something that can be done. And the fact that student loans are so easy to get here without draconian conditions for payback is absolutely amazing. We are incredibly lucky. Opportunity is there.
ReplyDeleteThe movement has failed and the people they wanted to take notice think they are a joke.
ReplyDeleteThey needed a well spoken, intelligent leader. They needed a cohesive game plan with an objective and to make the people in Washington DC to take notice.
Had OWS been more motivated like Dr. King/ The Women's Sufferage Movement ,I think more people would be protesting with them.
ditto every single word RQ has said in this thread.
ReplyDeletepersonally, i'm glad they got the boot. they are not effecting change. they are however, lowering the quality of life and business for every resident, employee and tourist in the area. yes, the system is broken. yes, it needs to be fixed. yes, we all suffer as a result. but this bullshit chanting/drum circle/marching is not bringing that about.
i am glad they were evicted. it's private property. there are known sex offenders, and assorted shady people thrown into this mix who have no business near our children...i won't go into the rampant drug & alcohol use blatantly in view. my heart goes out to the genuine believers in the movement...there are many people there w/ excellent points. they are mad, they are disappointed. i get it. i am too. but go home and DO something.
further, what the media fails to state is that while it's only 1 VERY short block away from ground zero, it's also about 500 ft. from a public hs (the High School of Economics and Finance)...if i were a parent w/ a child there i'd be pissed as F.
but enough of my rant. i leave you w/ this video. the first gentleman who speaks is one mark epstein, and i wish i could go out and declare my undying love him b/c he speaks the very words of my heart.
Merchants Protest OWS at NYC City Hall
If you think because you worked hard for all you have (my God, most of us have!) and aren't part of the 99%, God bless you. Ignorance is bliss, and that is why we are essentially slaves to the oligarchy. I'm grateful some one is out there protesting against this heinous system.
ReplyDeleteI also should add I've done my share of protesting, but when most of your generation is content to sit on their asses and hand their kids a HUGE mess, then it's really not that effective and you get tired. And I take issue with anyone who disparages these kids. They're better than us, and thank god.
ReplyDeleteRocketQueen: you're lucky then. Good for you. I'm $30,000 in debt because I was told by numerous people that I'd never get a job without a degree. I applied for as much bursary money as I could, which ended up being $2,500. My tuition fees quadrupled in the time I went to school. I came out of university with a degree and no job prospects. I've worked tooth and nail to get a decent job now (after working some seriously demeaning, crap-wage jobs) but I can still barely pay off my loans.
ReplyDeleteAnd yeah, dealing with the student loan system is draconian. It is the most awful, lie straight to your face system I've ever encountered. They changed the rules about loans yearly when I went to school, and I am routinely lied to by telephone agents (there's not even an office where I can talk to someone in person).
I don't have a credit card, don't own a car, and will never be able to afford a house. Yes, these things CAN be done. But you have to realize that your story is not the rule. I am NOT a lazy hippie sponging off the state. I work my ass off and can still barely get ahead.
And as far as the art gallery being a cesspool of drugs.... The Downtown Eastside is an actual cesspool of drug use, prostitution, and poverty but I don't see anyone rushing to shut that down. Occupiers don't want to work within the system because the system doesn't work for them. It doesn't even attempt to INCLUDE them.
No, I'm not "lucky", I worked hard. I used my school's resources to work co-op jobs while I went to school so that when I graduated, I had actual experience in my field. And for what it's worth, most people I went to school with are also doing well - but yeah, it takes a few YEARS after graduating. It doesn't all come magically.
ReplyDeleteAt no point did I call you a lazy hippy, nor did I call anyone else such a name. And I guess we'll just have to disagree that the system doesn't attempt to "include" them. In my view, it is they who are rejecting any real attempt to do what it takes, whilst simultaneously taking advantage of the benefits we have as Canadians. I'd still live here over anywhere else in the world.
Oh, and I don't own a car, either. Can't afford one. Transit and my own two legs work just fine. Maybe one day, though.
ReplyDeleteOligarchy? Really? We're going there?
ReplyDelete*sigh*
I wholeheartedly agree with every word RQ said. That's all.
ReplyDeleteOh and by the way, I rent a condo, drive a $500 shitbucket, and am just as happy as a fucking clam, thank you! :)
ReplyDeleteMiranda, why is it a "problem" that there are 62 billionaires in Canada that have $162 million? What business is it of ours how much money other people have? This is what annoys me so much -- this idea that everyone should should "share the wealth" or whatever. It's none of my business, or yours, how much our neighbors make. It's theirs. If they are billionaires, good for them. I wish I were, too. But I'm not and never will be. I was born middle class and (hopefully) will die middle class.
ReplyDeleteOne comment on an OWS news article I read really summed it up for me. The person wrote this about the protesters: "I have grown up in a world where it is politically incorrect and socially unacceptable for anyone to be better, faster, stronger or smarter than anyone else, a world where every kid on every team gets a trophy and nobody gets a bad grade at school. My parents behave like children themselves and borrowed through home equity loans and credit card debt to fund a lifestyle beyond our family's true means. They demanded no accountability from me and and protected my feelings at any costs. I have been given everything I ever asked for. I never had a summer job. I never saw anyone 'save up' for anything. I take technology for granted. I have no understanding of history, morals, or values. Now that the credit bubble has burst and Mom & Dad can't protect me anymore, I am clueless as to how to make my way in the world so I will do what I have always done -- I will whine and complain that it's 'no fair' until I get what I want."
I'm a very liberal person, and I believe in the right to express yourself, but I think people should try to come up with solutions instead of whining all the time.
ReplyDeleteAre they going to camp out for months?!
The problem with regulating Wall Street is...its hard to regulate risk!
People want to complain about how all the men/women on Wall Street are making $$$!
People need to realize that it takes years to make lots of money and not everyone makes that much.
Most analysts make $50,000 plus bonus, and associates with an MBA make $125,000 or more plus bonus.
So, you work 2 years as an analyst making $50,000/year plus $50,000 or more in bonus.
You leave to get your MBA, and you're earning in the low six figures plus bonus.
You have student loans to pay plus rent/bills, so cry me a river...
I'm glad they stormed the Park.
It was a health hazard!!!
I think people have the right to voice their opinion, but I don't think most of the protesters know what they're protesting!
ReplyDeleteHave you seen some of the interviews?!
The 60's were different...
I think people are just jumping on the bandwagon.
Here's what I don't get-why is it that other people MUST be doing something wrong, if things are going right for you? That's so disingenuous that it derails the argument that you may have been able to make. I worked 2 jobs, seven days a week and it was still freakin hard. Did I like it? No. Do I think everyone can do it? Honestly, no. I'm single, have a low mortgage but still have some significant loans from grad school (I went to CUNY school too) and I didn't even take out that much. Instead of thinking I can do it, so can you, where is the compassion? Why all the vitriol against the protesters when the big banks who created the financial crisis get off scot-free in the Americans minds? None of them went to jail when countless books have been written about how they KNOWINGLY bankrupted this country for their own greed. That's what boggles my mind. We turn on each other and those millionaires LAUGH and LAUGH. Why? Because we don't protect each other like THEY protect each other. Remember that. They will back each other up and watch the rest of us fight over the crumbs that they throw us.
ReplyDeleteGeorge Bailey is the hero of It's a Wonderful Life, NOT Mr. Potter. There''s a reason for that.
First of all, it really bothers me when people refer to the protesters as "hippie kids" who have nothing to do with their time. There are people of all ages, all walks of life who are participating. Many of whom are veterans. So, I think some respect should be given.
ReplyDeleteA lot of the people are responding with what the media is putting out there: crazy, stoned, mindless...if you really want to see how they are, maybe you should watch some of their videos, rather than the ones put up by the media that are MEANT to make you oppose them.
Also, I have not heard any of them say that they want the wealth of the rich to be re-distributed. They ask that the wealthy pay their FAIR SHARE of taxes. That is far from asking for their money. But society has been preconditioned to the word "socialism" and every time an idea is offered that politicians don't like, they use that word to conjure up images that scare people.
I do not understand American opposition to the protests. When did it become "un-American" to exercise a constitutional right in order to bring about a much needed change? Who can argue with their standing? Who will come forward and say that it's okay for corporations to buy our government? Who will say that it's okay for those same corporations to not be held accountable for criminal acts against this country's citizens, in order to satisfy their own greed? Who will say that it's okay for poverty levels to rise, homelessness to increase, education to diminish, jobs to disappear, all while the greedy corporations just continue to profit at our expense? Who will say that the uninsured should die because they don't have money for insurance coverage, or that senior citizens should worry about whether they will have a way to survive?
Why have people been taught to believe that any show of contempt (no matter how peaceful) for the corruption of the corporations and government of this country are somehow unpatriotic? Nothing could be MORE patriotic than loving a country so much that you want to protect her from greed and corruption, to want to heal her from years of abuse, and to take the power of the people back from those who are destroying her.
This country was founded on the belief that government was made by the people, for the people. That is the very definition of democracy. Unless the government functions from the voice of the PEOPLE (not corporations) then it is not truly a democracy. Fighting for democracy is patriotism. And the protesters are fighting for democracy, not just for themselves, but for ALL. They are not anti-government, they just want a BETTER government, one with the interest of the PEOPLE at heart. What is unpatriotic about that?
^That's not the "definition" of democracy at all. That's a partial of the preamble of the United States Constitution. ;)
ReplyDeleteI had to look for an old school book, but I found it.
ReplyDeleteDemocracy: "A political system based on the formal equality of all citizens, in which there is a realistic possibility that voters can replace the government, and in which certain basic rights and freedoms are protected."
@Texhan: Well said.
ReplyDeleteBlondie 1001: Well said, as well. No Wall Street millionaire is losing a minute's sleep over these protesters. "Knock yourselves out!" they say, and they laugh.
@Think About It: Absolutely! We need Mr. Smith back in Washington!
Who was it that said, "I can always hire one half of the working class to kill the other half?" It's a trap!
For what it's worth, I really do think there are big problems in the U.S., particularly with the bank bail outs and lobbying - I'm glad our government was more pro-active regarding bank regulation and that our government isn't as beholden to special interests. I don't begrudge people protesting at all, I just question IN THIS COUNTRY whether they're making a whit of difference by camping on a lawn, using city power for lights and the bathrooms of the mall across the street. They're certainly not improving their own lives.
ReplyDeleteI don't care if they stay camped out, I really don't. I've absolutely tuned them out at this point with all the urine dumping, the assaults and the overdoses. I'm not sure about other cities, but I've read the Occupy Vancouver's "List of Demands" (more like novel of demands) and it is absolutely out to lunch. Good luck with that. In the meantime, our city votes for a new council and mayor this Saturday (hopefully), and I'll be there bright and early to vote - I wonder if any protestors will?