For the first time in 30 years, these lab chimps were allowed outside. Used for all kinds of testing, they are finally free. Look how indescribably happy they are at being outside.
This shit disgusts me. Call me a terrorist if you will, but if anyone ever asks me if I want to help them break out animals being used in labs or anywhere else like this, I will totally do it. I watched a video last year of a group of dogs that have been used for testing their whole lives, that finally sat paw on the grass for the first time - it makes me sick.
Sorry, but all this video did was break my heart. Whatever happened to those chimps? Were they immediately shuffled back into their torture chamber after experiencing a brief glimpse of joy? This doesn't appear to be some sort of rescue operation. If anything, it appears to be another experiment: deprive a creature of a basic necessity for its whole, entire life, and then see how it reacts when you give him what he's lacked. You know, to see if anything other than a human has the capacity for happiness and elation or whatever -- because just respectfully OBSERVING an animal can't lead you to the same goddamned conclusions or anything.
I wish I could watch Jane Goodall punch every single one of the scientists who've tortured these chimps directly in their nutsacks, to be honest. THAT would be a heartwarming youtube clip.
It's revolting how human beings poke at and abuse animals who are so physically and cerebrally close akin to us in the name of "progress." As long as Big Pharma continues to dominate our culture (and it DOES), animal research will continue to flourish.
Oh, and how's all that research going? You know, the delving into curing interminable conditions and whatnot? Yeah. I thought so.
Chris Rock said it best: we don't even have a cure for Athlete's Foot. What makes us think we're ever going to find a cure for AIDS? All Big Pharma wants to do is prolong our misery and treat it -- NOT cure it. And animal researchers, immoral pieces of putrid shit that they are, are fully in on it.
This rant is long -- and I would apologize for it -- but I don't fucking feel like it.
Thanks, Ida. If anything's worth going to jail over, it's this bullshit. Study after study coming out saying animal research isn't even USEFUL in most cases, it's just the CHEAPEST form of research. I'm not religious, but anyone involved in this shit will eventually have to answer to someone/something, I'm sure of it.
ITA Ida...I'd like to give Jane Goodall a giant Thor hammer and let her go at them. I truly believe in karma, and these scientists have some awful stuff ahead of them.
Yeah what's the backstory here? Are they free for good? Good Lord, watching this made me cry too and at this point I do not cry easily. Please provide a link showing they are free. At the same time, they would have zero idea how to survive in the wild if they were born in cages and tested on their entire lives. It would be WONDERFUL to read that they were taken to a sanctuary
OMG, this made me cry. Animals are so awesome, and we really are lucky to be on the same planet with them. Too many humans don't deserve this privilege. I can't believe we still do this and worse to animals. :(
I'm glad that I speak some Dutch and could get the gist of the German voiceover.
These chimps had been taken from their mothers as infants and had been used in experiments up until 1997, when the pharma company using them was sold. At that point, they were moved to a preservation farm. Their keepers there have been trying to introduce them to the outside, but since they had been in isolation inside their whole lives they rejected it. They wouldn't go out, threw away grass they were given, threw fits about going outside, etc. Finally, after 14 years, some of the chimps agreed to go outside for the first time. This video shows what happened when they did.
Some of them have been injected with Hep and HIV, which explains the slender builds and the patchy hair.
This made me cry. I love, love, love animals, and that we use them in experimentation is disgusting. And I work in the medical/health field. I flunked 10th grade bio because I refused to dissect animals. There's no reason for any of this -- we have computer models that can do the job of 95% of the animals we use.
RQ- Right there with you. The dogs they use quite a bit for testing are beagles because they are sooo nice. I have a great love of beagles. It makes me sick what they do to them.
Ohhhhh, MY GAWD. If you're able to watch that Beagle Freedom Project video without bawling your ASS OFF, then you're made of steel, and congrats to you. I'm still sniffling and wet-eyed, personally.
Spoiler: it's NOT a disturbing downer. Thanks for posting that info, Ardleigh. I'm *absolutely* adopting a dog from them in the future. I'm sold on any rescue organization, but Beagles are just amazing little creatures, anyway.
Despite the undeniable fact that so many fellow human beings suck, it's heartening to know how other people are equally passionate about animal welfare. It's always really gratifying to see examples of it -- thanks, homies.
"It's revolting how human beings poke at and abuse animals who are so physically and cerebrally close akin to us in the name of 'progress.'"
This. If you spend 5 minutes watching a chimp, you will see that they have more 'humanity' than most of us "higher beings." Experimenting on them is just as evil as the twisted things we have done to humans in the name of science. Our unethical research record throughout our country's history is one case where a comparison to the Nazi regime is not hyperbolic.
I don't speak German but I did catch that the guy that was interviewed works for some kind of "ape refuge" where these chimpanzees had been taken. The testing did not take place there, they had been rescued. Still sad though.
I still have ptsd from the video we watched in psych class of the baby chimp who was denied any physical affection from birth. He clung to a stuffed monkey as if it was his mother. In one way that research was "helpful," because it taught us a lot about how babies need physical contact in order to develop properly, but they could have studied people who were denied that contact for some other reason and gotten the same results. I know researchers can practice disassociation, but I think you'd almost have to be a sociopath to do stuff like that.
"Our unethical research record throughout our country's history is one case where a comparison to the Nazi regime is not hyperbolic."
"I know researchers can practice disassociation, but I think you'd almost have to be a sociopath to do stuff like that."
Hello, Mooshki. Did you just TOTALLY enter my brain or something? I'm SO GLAD you said these things, because they're very strong statements with which I happen to COMPLETELY AGREE.
I don't think that the average person can kiss his wife goodbye, trek to Silver Springs (or any other vivisectionist horror compound), toss on a labcoat, and inflict agony on other creatures for a living if there isn't already something significantly WRONG with that individual. I'm entirely convinced that if they couldn't (legally) take out their sadistic urges on non-human animals, they'd head straight to people.
Nothing separates Mengele from the scientists who inject chimps with HIV, in my opinion. It's a deep, disturbing sickness and morbid curiosity.
@ardleigh - I'd not heard of the Beagle Freedom Project before! I have a beagle/dachshund mix, but beagles are awesome dogs.
My mom told me about PCRM (Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine) a few years ago. They promote alternatives to animal research/testing, such as what these poor chimps have been through.
Lelaina - I'm a huge fan of PCRM :) As a group, they're some of the only doctors who are willing to publicly advocate a vegetarian diet despite the influence of the meat industry.
"I don't think that the average person can kiss his wife goodbye, trek to Silver Springs (or any other vivisectionist horror compound), toss on a labcoat, and inflict agony on other creatures for a living if there isn't already something significantly WRONG with that individual. I'm entirely convinced that if they couldn't (legally) take out their sadistic urges on non-human animals, they'd head straight to people."
That is just a terrible thing to say, and really offensive. Clearly, I'm in the minority in this discussion, but having worked in labs with lab animals, I saw how they were treated and the people who worked with them, and I saw nothing but kindness and compassion for the animals. The researchers who did the testing felt pity for the animals but knew they were trying to advance medicine for humankind. And do you have any idea the committees one needs to go through to get a study using animals through? Sometimes it takes years to get approval because everyone is so concerned with the welfare of the animals involved.
You are all welcome to your opinion that animal testing is wrong, but it takes it too far to say that people who do this type of research having something "wrong" and "sadistic" about them. And am I "wrong" and "sadistic" when I put on my lab coat, head to vet school, and practice procedures on prac dogs that might be painful?? The dogs we use are research dogs that come to the vet school for our practicals, and are used for other research studies. When they reach the age of 5, they are re-homed to live out the rest of their lives as family dogs. Whenever I work with them, I am as gentle as I can be, same as I was when I cleaned up the cages of lab animals. I guess my "sadistic" side just hasn't made an appearance yet.
@Melanie -- "The dogs we use are research dogs that come to the vet school for our practicals, and are used for other research studies."
Those dogs you use for your "pracs" are just as apt to feel discomfort as dogs *not* raised for the purpose of research. Pain is pain. Period. There are plenty of veterinarians who go through their rigorous training WITHOUT torturing the creatures they've promised to aid and protect.
Don't act like the laboratory atmosphere is like some big, fuzzy humane society. If you really cared about animals, you'd work WITH and FOR them. Oh, and it might take years for you to get permission (i.e., gov't grants) before you embark on research, but that sure as hell doesn't make what you do ethical.
Talk to me when you've cured ANYTHING -- or when you've come CLOSE to seeing anything BE cured.
You give me chills, and my standpoint hasn't changed whatsoever.
P.S. "The dogs we use are research dogs that come to the vet school for our practicals..."
I love (not really) how your phrasing almost makes it seem as if the dogs are *voluntarily* entering the laboratory in order to better humanity. But I'm sure that's what all you whitecoats tell yourselves in order to justify what you do for a living -- that some dogs are just fated to live desolate and miserable lives in cages, while others get to romp amid sunshine and freedom. I guess the dogs in the cages suffer for the dogs who get to run around in sunny backyards? That's pretty fucked.
I just CAN'T with you. It's been a while since someone on this site has sickened me so much. I guess from now on, I'll be on the lookout for Melanie the Vivisector and her uber-enlightened comments.
Melanie, I think there is an ethical spectrum with animal research, and despite regulations, there is a lot of stuff going on that is far worse than the relatively humane practices you have seen.
Wow, talk about sick. Someone doesn't agree with your opinion, which automatically makes them wrong, and then you go on personal attacks. Are you vet school or a veterinarian? I'm guessing no, because you clearly don't have a clue what our training entails. We have to practice treatments on live animals so we can do it correctly when we get to our patients. Do you want your animal to be the first one any vet ever sticks a catheter into, or does a live spey?? Do you have any idea how difficult is it to do surgery on a living, breathing patient? Of course you don't. We use sheep for those pracs so that when we finally do spey your pet, we know what we are doing. It's not torture, any procedure we do on them is accompanied by more than adequate pain meds, and supervised every single second to ensure the animals' welfare. There is NO other way to learn how to do certain procedures, computer simulation or using dead animals in NO WAY compares to doing that same procedure on a live animal. Do your research before you tell me that other vets learn without "torturing" animals.
Just because I am able to do these things does not mean I don't care about animals. In fact, I practice those things so I can be a better vet, so that I can provide the best care possible to my patients. But honestly, all this is probably lost on you. You are too focused on how your opinion is right.
Over and over again on this site, I see you preachy tolerance and "how wonderful it is" that everyone gets along. But the minute someone has a different opinion to yours, you immediately attack them personally. It's pretty sad that you can't have a debate without resorting to petty attacks.
I agree Mooshki, there is a spectrum, and I also agree that I probably saw the better end of it. I just don't agree with lumping all researchers into one category, there are many who want to do good in the world, and really don't enjoy hurting animals to do it.
By the way, thank you for offering your opinion without resorting to personal attacks, it's much appreciated.
@Melanie -- Again, it IS possible to go through vet school without experimenting on LIVE animals. I even know a few people who can personally attest to that. I know practicing DVMs who won't even think about declawing. It's all about what YOUR own ethical lines are -- don't you DARE purport to speak for an entire industry.
Oh, and it's S-P-A-Y. You work in the industry, and the correct spelling eludes you? WOW. "Spey and Nooter" your pets, everybody!
"A different opinion" is one thing, but we're not talking about politics, religion, or what just happened on the latest Jersey Shore. You make a living doing something that I find egregious -- thus, my reaction to/against you is going to be pretty vehement.
*Slow claps* Congrats Ida, you really put me in my place. No one anywhere in the world can spell "spay" different because everything must be in the American spelling. Bravo.
Declawing and doing live surgery during vet school are two different things. We don't learn declawing here, and just because the few vets you know won't do declawing doesn't meant they didn't practice procedures on live animals in vet school. Is that distinction too much for you to comprehend???
And don't you dare speak for an industry that you are only involved peripherally in. If you believe what I do as a living is "egregious," guess you should start treating your own animals personally for all their veterinary care because what you claim to hate so much is what vets do to learn to become vets!
Clearly Ida, your opinion on this blog is sacrosanct, and no one can believe anything different lest they face your wrath. Make sure to email your opinion to Ida before posting it so it's the correct one everyone!!
Wow... This is a very interesting debate we've got going on here! I would like to add my 2 cents (please no one hate me!) because I AM a veterinarian and practicing in the real world for 4 and 1/2 years. In undergrad I worked at The OSU Chimpanzee Center (it was a research center but only did cognitive research on the animals-- ie testing their ability to comprehend numbers, etc). Jane Goodall was a HUGE supporter of the facility and visited often so she obviously does not disagree in all uses of chimps for research. That being said, these chimps went outside all the time, had great enrichment and loved each other and the people that worked there. Since that time the center has shut down and all the animals have been moved to rescue facilities. There was actually a documentary on Discovery Channel about the facility.
That being said: do I believe in using animal models for research on human meds: No. Do I believe it is (somewhat) necessary for animal studies: yes. However, you can often find "pets" that people are willing to have be part of an experimental study b/c they have no other options or owners cannot afford traditional treatment protocols
As for Melanie's feelings that you are required to practice on animals-- that is true but only to a certain point (and YES I graduated from a "real" vet school-- Ohio State which is top 5 in the country so it's not like we are different than other vet schools in the country). Our first year we do dissections on dogs and cats. However-- these all came from local shelters and animals that were already being euthanized-- they were not put down for us. We just "recycled" the bodies that would of been disposed of otherwise.
In 3rd year we did spays/neuters in labs. These were also performed on shelter animals that were later adopted out. These were animals that would of had the exact same surgery performed at the shelter, so these animals were treated no differently than an animal coming into a clinic to have the same surgery. (And I currently have my first spay and my parents have the first dog I neutered). In clinics we worked exclusively on client owned pets that came into the hospital.
My main point: animals are NOT routinely tested and practiced on in vet school except in a manner that they would of experienced in any clinic. We never performed tests just to do it and NEVER mistreated any of the animals.
I just don't want people to believe that their veterinarians are cold-hearted jerks that enjoy testing and practicing random shit on animals.
Melanie brought up great points as well. I've never thought to ask my dogs vet what he (or she, depending on where we have lived) had to do in school in order to be qualified to treat my pup. I just trusted that they knew what they were doing and would do whatever was needed with the least amount of pain.
Melanie, thank you for letting us know the animals are 'retired' when they were 5 and found homes. As a matter of fact, I'm going to look and see if any organizations (vetwise) in my city need help with placing such pets.
You are absolutely right firebugDVM, I should have made the distinction that the animals we use are only used for the things they would experience in the clinic, and that we never performed tests just to do it. Some of the animals we get, (i.e. the sheep), are donated by farmers that would normally be sent to the works, but give to us so that we can practice our surgery skills. While they are euthanized at the end of the surgery (and it makes me very sad), I take great comfort knowing that they went peacefully without ever waking up from surgery, much more peacefully than if they had met their end at the slaughter house. I should have been clearer on that, and thank you firebugDVM for doing so where I failed. I would never do anything to intentionally harm an animal, and with my great love of animals, I get very upset when someone implies otherwise.
Suhyphen, thanks for the kind words and support. I think it's a great idea that you check for such organizations. If I didn't have 3 dogs already, I would have taken home at least one of those prac dogs by now. Luckily, they are routinely adopted, loved, and cherished for life by many vet students.
@Firebug -- Thanks for your words. I was wondering if you'd chime in, because from what you've said, I can't IMAGINE you testing on animals.
I was told by a vet pal a long time ago how some people graduate from vet school and enter the realm of animal research, whereas other people choose the less lucrative and more altruistic path and work within their own private practices. This thread kind of proves that theory.
@Melanie, the wonderful thing about this blog is how it's not moderated by Enty, me, or anyone else. You're welcome to volunteer how you test on animals for a living, and I'm free to verbally rip you a new one.
"No one anywhere in the world can spell "spay" different because everything must be in the American spelling."
Um, that's the *correct* spelling of the word "spay" -- it's not the "American" version of it. I know all those four-letter words can be tricky, though. You'd think that would be one word that you'd encounter about three dozen times a day in vet school, however.
I bring it up because I sure as hell wouldn't entrust a doctor who can't even figure out how to SPELL "spay" with the medical care of my pet. That might make me a snob. I don't care. I've been called faaaaaar worse on this blog. *shrugs*
Ida - just wondering... say you had a loved one dying of cancer, and a cure was found, and this cure came to be found through research done with animals. Would you want your relative to be cured even though it was created thanks to animal testing?
I think you were way OTT in your criticism of Melanie. I totally understand your passion in regards to the topic, children and animals are my passions in life (studying to be a teacher now after having had 2 children of my own) - sometimes in this life things have to be done in order to serve the greater good of mankind.
FWIW I would be against any testing that was done inhumanely or injustly. But if it is rigorous, and done with respect and great care, and within a certain timeline, with the animals going on to future homes full of love, well I might just have to be on board with that. If this kind of testing could save the life of one of my girls one day, or their future grandchildren, well...
I just don't think we are at the stage yet that would see the need for animal testing to be abandoned. Computers are great, research is phenomenal, and so on... hopefully one day soon. Sooner than later.
Perhaps in the shadow of 9/11 and the 10th Anniversary approaching folks can try and be a little chill for a bit... life is just too precious. I don't much like bitchiness and BS. It's just a big fat waste of time. Civility rocks.
One last thing to mention: while I have not done research on animals while being a vet I did have to take a class on laboratory animals. The biggest thing we learned was the strict standards in place for the treatment of these animals. Someone (Melanie?) mentioned that some studies are held up for year over these standards and that is absolutely true. EVERY step in taken to make this testing as humane as possible. Now, does that mean all labs follow these standards? Obviously not, but the major places that are publishing their findings better be or they will have these committees all over their asses.
Do I believe that animal testing is humane? No, but I am very thankful that there are organizations that dictate how these animals are supposed to be treated.
So am I the only one who thought that the chimps weren't so much blissful as really afraid of a new surrounding? I've seen a chimp jump for joy, but the hugs those ones engaged in seemed to be more about reassurance. And notice how they stayed in the doorway? No doubt in time they'll be happier; I'm just leery of projecting that emotion based just on the video.
@Ida - Btw, 10 seconds googling brought up two vet clinics in Britain and Australia that "spey" animals. Could you please let them know how wrong and positively Melanie-esque they're being?
@Melanie - I can't imagine that anyone but those who love animals would aim to become a vet. (Everyone knows the sadists sign up for dental school). Cheers in your career :).
The only thing I want to add to this is a reply to Caroline - I hate hate HATE when people ask that question, but to answer it for myself, no, it is still not okay to test on animals with the unlikely hope that doing so will yield benefit to humans, including "a family member of mine". Pharma testing on animals is inhumane, no matter how you cut it. If you research the issue, you'll find that such testing is also extraordinarily unhelpful when it comes to humans and there are now other ways to conduct such tests, although these newer style of tests are more expensive.
I don't have the time or patience to speak further on this topic because it raises my blood pressure (kudos to the rest of you :)), but here's a quick link to a group in my city that is doing great work raising awareness of animal research in one of our universities, providing info on alternatives and how fucking useless animal testing actually is:
Lastly, I will say that to be fair, I think there is a difference between what Melanie does for a living and those injecting non-humans with drugs, botox (oh yes) and cosmetics for the "benefit" of humankind. That is all.
Thanks @Unknown for proving my point, that spey is spelled differently. Frankly Ida, you are beyond pathetic that just because *you* think that I spelled spay wrong, that I would be a bad vet. Better get on contacting those clinics that Unknown mentioned and let they know how you think they are wrong. Make sure you only visit doctors who spell words like "foetus" and "oesophagus" correctly in your way, because by your standards, they won't know what the hell they are doing if they can't! Oh yeah, and only read authors who don't have misspelled words and typos on their books; after all, they are writers and how can they be good at their job if they don't spell everything correctly every time? What rigid standards you must live by.
I don't test on animals for a living, I really don't get how you can't see that! You are ripping on me for something I (and others) have pointed out multiple times that I don't do. I am in veterinary school, learning to be a vet, not testing animals in a lab. I practice clinical techniques on live animals, just as the rest of my class does, just as people in other vet schools do, only doing things that these animals would experience themselves in a clinic. You are so blinded on how you believe you are right that you can't see what's right in front of you. And your *theory* really is BS and without basis. If it were true, then all 100+ people in my class would be going into research!
Maybe it's time you realized there is a bigger world outside your insular little box. I have tried to be civil and polite, not once attacking you, or saying rude things about you personally, yet you seem incapable in doing the same. I can't believe an adult would have so much trouble having a discussion without resorting to childish behavior. Everyone else on this thread seems to be able to, everyone but you. Frankly, you deserve what people have called you in the past, and probably worse, but @Caroline Little is right: There is too much bitchiness in the world, and you simply aren't worth it.
Thank you so much @Unknown for what you said, I do dearly love animals, which is the only reason why I entered this profession. @Rocket Queen, I appreciate you being fair and noticing the distinction.
Don't let them get to you, Melanie. Watch the Dog Whisperer & take heart knowing that animals don't ruminate over past incidents; they live in the now, and you are doing a lot of good in your chosen profession, to create many more better "nows" for animals who need you!
I love this! ʚ(ˆ◡ˆ)ɞ
ReplyDeleteIt's disgusting that this is the first time.
ReplyDeleteDitto Sherry! Made me smile, and I needed that today!
ReplyDeletetheir surprise and happiness is beautiful, but how sad to see the state they are - thin with such patchy coats. boo.
ReplyDeleteThat is so wonderful yet heartbreaking :(
ReplyDeleteMy heart breaks when I watch videos like these. (and I've just seen Rise of the Planet of the Apes too...)
ReplyDeleteYou know it must have been 30 years of caged loneliness and then some, for them to be so ecstatic to see sunlight...
Makes me want to bawl
ReplyDeleteThis shit disgusts me. Call me a terrorist if you will, but if anyone ever asks me if I want to help them break out animals being used in labs or anywhere else like this, I will totally do it. I watched a video last year of a group of dogs that have been used for testing their whole lives, that finally sat paw on the grass for the first time - it makes me sick.
ReplyDeleteI'm right there with you with a lock cutter, RQ. Right there.
ReplyDeleteSorry, but all this video did was break my heart. Whatever happened to those chimps? Were they immediately shuffled back into their torture chamber after experiencing a brief glimpse of joy? This doesn't appear to be some sort of rescue operation. If anything, it appears to be another experiment: deprive a creature of a basic necessity for its whole, entire life, and then see how it reacts when you give him what he's lacked. You know, to see if anything other than a human has the capacity for happiness and elation or whatever -- because just respectfully OBSERVING an animal can't lead you to the same goddamned conclusions or anything.
ReplyDeleteI wish I could watch Jane Goodall punch every single one of the scientists who've tortured these chimps directly in their nutsacks, to be honest. THAT would be a heartwarming youtube clip.
It's revolting how human beings poke at and abuse animals who are so physically and cerebrally close akin to us in the name of "progress." As long as Big Pharma continues to dominate our culture (and it DOES), animal research will continue to flourish.
Oh, and how's all that research going? You know, the delving into curing interminable conditions and whatnot? Yeah. I thought so.
Chris Rock said it best: we don't even have a cure for Athlete's Foot. What makes us think we're ever going to find a cure for AIDS? All Big Pharma wants to do is prolong our misery and treat it -- NOT cure it. And animal researchers, immoral pieces of putrid shit that they are, are fully in on it.
This rant is long -- and I would apologize for it -- but I don't fucking feel like it.
@RQ -- You know you can give me a ring anytime, lady. I've got your back a billion times over when it comes to this stuff.
ReplyDeleteThanks, Ida. If anything's worth going to jail over, it's this bullshit. Study after study coming out saying animal research isn't even USEFUL in most cases, it's just the CHEAPEST form of research. I'm not religious, but anyone involved in this shit will eventually have to answer to someone/something, I'm sure of it.
ReplyDeleteITA Ida...I'd like to give Jane Goodall a giant Thor hammer and let her go at them. I truly believe in karma, and these scientists have some awful stuff ahead of them.
ReplyDeleteIt makes me sad, they look so scared to even go outside. That is so wrong. Judgment day is going to be pretty crappy for some scummy people. : (
ReplyDeleteYeah what's the backstory here? Are they free for good?
ReplyDeleteGood Lord, watching this made me cry too and at this point I do not cry easily.
Please provide a link showing they are free. At the same time, they would have zero idea how to survive in the wild if they were born in cages and tested on their entire lives.
It would be WONDERFUL to read that they were taken to a sanctuary
OMG, this made me cry. Animals are so awesome, and we really are lucky to be on the same planet with them. Too many humans don't deserve this privilege. I can't believe we still do this and worse to animals. :(
ReplyDeleteI'm glad that I speak some Dutch and could get the gist of the German voiceover.
ReplyDeleteThese chimps had been taken from their mothers as infants and had been used in experiments up until 1997, when the pharma company using them was sold. At that point, they were moved to a preservation farm. Their keepers there have been trying to introduce them to the outside, but since they had been in isolation inside their whole lives they rejected it. They wouldn't go out, threw away grass they were given, threw fits about going outside, etc. Finally, after 14 years, some of the chimps agreed to go outside for the first time. This video shows what happened when they did.
Some of them have been injected with Hep and HIV, which explains the slender builds and the patchy hair.
This made me cry. I love, love, love animals, and that we use them in experimentation is disgusting. And I work in the medical/health field. I flunked 10th grade bio because I refused to dissect animals. There's no reason for any of this -- we have computer models that can do the job of 95% of the animals we use.
Disgusting.
Thanks, Texshan. I was going to post a translation as well. Makes the video that much more heartbreaking...
ReplyDeleteWhen they hugged each other and grouped up
ReplyDeleteWhoa
Thank you for explaining Texshan
RQ- Right there with you. The dogs they use quite a bit for testing are beagles because they are sooo nice. I have a great love of beagles. It makes me sick what they do to them.
ReplyDeleteLook up the Beagle Freedom Project.
Thanks, Texshan. I speak some Dutch, too, but couldn't watch the video because I didn't feel like bawling...
ReplyDeleteOhhhhh, MY GAWD. If you're able to watch that Beagle Freedom Project video without bawling your ASS OFF, then you're made of steel, and congrats to you. I'm still sniffling and wet-eyed, personally.
ReplyDeleteSpoiler: it's NOT a disturbing downer. Thanks for posting that info, Ardleigh. I'm *absolutely* adopting a dog from them in the future. I'm sold on any rescue organization, but Beagles are just amazing little creatures, anyway.
Despite the undeniable fact that so many fellow human beings suck, it's heartening to know how other people are equally passionate about animal welfare. It's always really gratifying to see examples of it -- thanks, homies.
"It's revolting how human beings poke at and abuse animals who are so physically and cerebrally close akin to us in the name of 'progress.'"
ReplyDeleteThis. If you spend 5 minutes watching a chimp, you will see that they have more 'humanity' than most of us "higher beings." Experimenting on them is just as evil as the twisted things we have done to humans in the name of science. Our unethical research record throughout our country's history is one case where a comparison to the Nazi regime is not hyperbolic.
I don't speak German but I did catch that the guy that was interviewed works for some kind of "ape refuge" where these chimpanzees had been taken. The testing did not take place there, they had been rescued. Still sad though.
ReplyDeleteI still have ptsd from the video we watched in psych class of the baby chimp who was denied any physical affection from birth. He clung to a stuffed monkey as if it was his mother. In one way that research was "helpful," because it taught us a lot about how babies need physical contact in order to develop properly, but they could have studied people who were denied that contact for some other reason and gotten the same results. I know researchers can practice disassociation, but I think you'd almost have to be a sociopath to do stuff like that.
ReplyDelete"Our unethical research record throughout our country's history is one case where a comparison to the Nazi regime is not hyperbolic."
ReplyDelete"I know researchers can practice disassociation, but I think you'd almost have to be a sociopath to do stuff like that."
Hello, Mooshki. Did you just TOTALLY enter my brain or something? I'm SO GLAD you said these things, because they're very strong statements with which I happen to COMPLETELY AGREE.
I don't think that the average person can kiss his wife goodbye, trek to Silver Springs (or any other vivisectionist horror compound), toss on a labcoat, and inflict agony on other creatures for a living if there isn't already something significantly WRONG with that individual. I'm entirely convinced that if they couldn't (legally) take out their sadistic urges on non-human animals, they'd head straight to people.
Nothing separates Mengele from the scientists who inject chimps with HIV, in my opinion. It's a deep, disturbing sickness and morbid curiosity.
@ardleigh - I'd not heard of the Beagle Freedom Project before! I have a beagle/dachshund mix, but beagles are awesome dogs.
ReplyDeleteMy mom told me about PCRM (Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine) a few years ago. They promote alternatives to animal research/testing, such as what these poor chimps have been through.
Wonderful and Horrible all at the same time.
ReplyDeleteWe all know how wrong it is and if anyone had doubts, just watch.
Hope they're still romping around outside.
Lelaina - I'm a huge fan of PCRM :) As a group, they're some of the only doctors who are willing to publicly advocate a vegetarian diet despite the influence of the meat industry.
ReplyDelete"I don't think that the average person can kiss his wife goodbye, trek to Silver Springs (or any other vivisectionist horror compound), toss on a labcoat, and inflict agony on other creatures for a living if there isn't already something significantly WRONG with that individual. I'm entirely convinced that if they couldn't (legally) take out their sadistic urges on non-human animals, they'd head straight to people."
ReplyDeleteThat is just a terrible thing to say, and really offensive. Clearly, I'm in the minority in this discussion, but having worked in labs with lab animals, I saw how they were treated and the people who worked with them, and I saw nothing but kindness and compassion for the animals. The researchers who did the testing felt pity for the animals but knew they were trying to advance medicine for humankind. And do you have any idea the committees one needs to go through to get a study using animals through? Sometimes it takes years to get approval because everyone is so concerned with the welfare of the animals involved.
You are all welcome to your opinion that animal testing is wrong, but it takes it too far to say that people who do this type of research having something "wrong" and "sadistic" about them. And am I "wrong" and "sadistic" when I put on my lab coat, head to vet school, and practice procedures on prac dogs that might be painful?? The dogs we use are research dogs that come to the vet school for our practicals, and are used for other research studies. When they reach the age of 5, they are re-homed to live out the rest of their lives as family dogs. Whenever I work with them, I am as gentle as I can be, same as I was when I cleaned up the cages of lab animals. I guess my "sadistic" side just hasn't made an appearance yet.
@Melanie -- "The dogs we use are research dogs that come to the vet school for our practicals, and are used for other research studies."
ReplyDeleteThose dogs you use for your "pracs" are just as apt to feel discomfort as dogs *not* raised for the purpose of research. Pain is pain. Period. There are plenty of veterinarians who go through their rigorous training WITHOUT torturing the creatures they've promised to aid and protect.
Don't act like the laboratory atmosphere is like some big, fuzzy humane society. If you really cared about animals, you'd work WITH and FOR them. Oh, and it might take years for you to get permission (i.e., gov't grants) before you embark on research, but that sure as hell doesn't make what you do ethical.
Talk to me when you've cured ANYTHING -- or when you've come CLOSE to seeing anything BE cured.
You give me chills, and my standpoint hasn't changed whatsoever.
P.S. "The dogs we use are research dogs that come to the vet school for our practicals..."
ReplyDeleteI love (not really) how your phrasing almost makes it seem as if the dogs are *voluntarily* entering the laboratory in order to better humanity. But I'm sure that's what all you whitecoats tell yourselves in order to justify what you do for a living -- that some dogs are just fated to live desolate and miserable lives in cages, while others get to romp amid sunshine and freedom. I guess the dogs in the cages suffer for the dogs who get to run around in sunny backyards? That's pretty fucked.
I just CAN'T with you. It's been a while since someone on this site has sickened me so much. I guess from now on, I'll be on the lookout for Melanie the Vivisector and her uber-enlightened comments.
Melanie, I think there is an ethical spectrum with animal research, and despite regulations, there is a lot of stuff going on that is far worse than the relatively humane practices you have seen.
ReplyDeleteWow, talk about sick. Someone doesn't agree with your opinion, which automatically makes them wrong, and then you go on personal attacks. Are you vet school or a veterinarian? I'm guessing no, because you clearly don't have a clue what our training entails. We have to practice treatments on live animals so we can do it correctly when we get to our patients. Do you want your animal to be the first one any vet ever sticks a catheter into, or does a live spey?? Do you have any idea how difficult is it to do surgery on a living, breathing patient? Of course you don't. We use sheep for those pracs so that when we finally do spey your pet, we know what we are doing. It's not torture, any procedure we do on them is accompanied by more than adequate pain meds, and supervised every single second to ensure the animals' welfare. There is NO other way to learn how to do certain procedures, computer simulation or using dead animals in NO WAY compares to doing that same procedure on a live animal. Do your research before you tell me that other vets learn without "torturing" animals.
ReplyDeleteJust because I am able to do these things does not mean I don't care about animals. In fact, I practice those things so I can be a better vet, so that I can provide the best care possible to my patients. But honestly, all this is probably lost on you. You are too focused on how your opinion is right.
Over and over again on this site, I see you preachy tolerance and "how wonderful it is" that everyone gets along. But the minute someone has a different opinion to yours, you immediately attack them personally. It's pretty sad that you can't have a debate without resorting to petty attacks.
I agree Mooshki, there is a spectrum, and I also agree that I probably saw the better end of it. I just don't agree with lumping all researchers into one category, there are many who want to do good in the world, and really don't enjoy hurting animals to do it.
ReplyDeleteBy the way, thank you for offering your opinion without resorting to personal attacks, it's much appreciated.
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ReplyDelete@Melanie -- Again, it IS possible to go through vet school without experimenting on LIVE animals. I even know a few people who can personally attest to that. I know practicing DVMs who won't even think about declawing. It's all about what YOUR own ethical lines are -- don't you DARE purport to speak for an entire industry.
ReplyDeleteOh, and it's S-P-A-Y. You work in the industry, and the correct spelling eludes you? WOW. "Spey and Nooter" your pets, everybody!
"A different opinion" is one thing, but we're not talking about politics, religion, or what just happened on the latest Jersey Shore. You make a living doing something that I find egregious -- thus, my reaction to/against you is going to be pretty vehement.
*Slow claps* Congrats Ida, you really put me in my place. No one anywhere in the world can spell "spay" different because everything must be in the American spelling. Bravo.
ReplyDeleteDeclawing and doing live surgery during vet school are two different things. We don't learn declawing here, and just because the few vets you know won't do declawing doesn't meant they didn't practice procedures on live animals in vet school. Is that distinction too much for you to comprehend???
And don't you dare speak for an industry that you are only involved peripherally in. If you believe what I do as a living is "egregious," guess you should start treating your own animals personally for all their veterinary care because what you claim to hate so much is what vets do to learn to become vets!
Clearly Ida, your opinion on this blog is sacrosanct, and no one can believe anything different lest they face your wrath. Make sure to email your opinion to Ida before posting it so it's the correct one everyone!!
@Mooshki - I kept thinking about the baby chimp video after I read this earlier this afternoon and it made me so sad/sick and I haven't even seen it!
ReplyDeleteI can't disagree with any of what Mooshki or Ida have said & I think they brought up some very good points.
Wow... This is a very interesting debate we've got going on here!
ReplyDeleteI would like to add my 2 cents (please no one hate me!) because I AM a veterinarian and practicing in the real world for 4 and 1/2 years.
In undergrad I worked at The OSU Chimpanzee Center (it was a research center but only did cognitive research on the animals-- ie testing their ability to comprehend numbers, etc). Jane Goodall was a HUGE supporter of the facility and visited often so she obviously does not disagree in all uses of chimps for research. That being said, these chimps went outside all the time, had great enrichment and loved each other and the people that worked there. Since that time the center has shut down and all the animals have been moved to rescue facilities. There was actually a documentary on Discovery Channel about the facility.
That being said: do I believe in using animal models for research on human meds: No. Do I believe it is (somewhat) necessary for animal studies: yes. However, you can often find "pets" that people are willing to have be part of an experimental study b/c they have no other options or owners cannot afford traditional treatment protocols
As for Melanie's feelings that you are required to practice on animals-- that is true but only to a certain point (and YES I graduated from a "real" vet school-- Ohio State which is top 5 in the country so it's not like we are different than other vet schools in the country). Our first year we do dissections on dogs and cats. However-- these all came from local shelters and animals that were already being euthanized-- they were not put down for us. We just "recycled" the bodies that would of been disposed of otherwise.
ReplyDeleteIn 3rd year we did spays/neuters in labs. These were also performed on shelter animals that were later adopted out. These were animals that would of had the exact same surgery performed at the shelter, so these animals were treated no differently than an animal coming into a clinic to have the same surgery. (And I currently have my first spay and my parents have the first dog I neutered). In clinics we worked exclusively on client owned pets that came into the hospital.
My main point: animals are NOT routinely tested and practiced on in vet school except in a manner that they would of experienced in any clinic. We never performed tests just to do it and NEVER mistreated any of the animals.
I just don't want people to believe that their veterinarians are cold-hearted jerks that enjoy testing and practicing random shit on animals.
The end of my rant :)
Melanie brought up great points as well.
ReplyDeleteI've never thought to ask my dogs vet what he (or she, depending on where we have lived) had to do in school in order to be qualified to treat my pup. I just trusted that they knew what they were doing and would do whatever was needed with the least amount of pain.
Melanie, thank you for letting us know the animals are 'retired' when they were 5 and found homes.
As a matter of fact, I'm going to look and see if any organizations (vetwise) in my city need help with placing such pets.
You too firebug :)
ReplyDeleteA good vet is hard to find these days.
You are absolutely right firebugDVM, I should have made the distinction that the animals we use are only used for the things they would experience in the clinic, and that we never performed tests just to do it. Some of the animals we get, (i.e. the sheep), are donated by farmers that would normally be sent to the works, but give to us so that we can practice our surgery skills. While they are euthanized at the end of the surgery (and it makes me very sad), I take great comfort knowing that they went peacefully without ever waking up from surgery, much more peacefully than if they had met their end at the slaughter house. I should have been clearer on that, and thank you firebugDVM for doing so where I failed. I would never do anything to intentionally harm an animal, and with my great love of animals, I get very upset when someone implies otherwise.
ReplyDeleteSuhyphen, thanks for the kind words and support. I think it's a great idea that you check for such organizations. If I didn't have 3 dogs already, I would have taken home at least one of those prac dogs by now. Luckily, they are routinely adopted, loved, and cherished for life by many vet students.
@Firebug -- Thanks for your words. I was wondering if you'd chime in, because from what you've said, I can't IMAGINE you testing on animals.
ReplyDeleteI was told by a vet pal a long time ago how some people graduate from vet school and enter the realm of animal research, whereas other people choose the less lucrative and more altruistic path and work within their own private practices. This thread kind of proves that theory.
@Melanie, the wonderful thing about this blog is how it's not moderated by Enty, me, or anyone else. You're welcome to volunteer how you test on animals for a living, and I'm free to verbally rip you a new one.
"No one anywhere in the world can spell "spay" different because everything must be in the American spelling."
Um, that's the *correct* spelling of the word "spay" -- it's not the "American" version of it. I know all those four-letter words can be tricky, though. You'd think that would be one word that you'd encounter about three dozen times a day in vet school, however.
I bring it up because I sure as hell wouldn't entrust a doctor who can't even figure out how to SPELL "spay" with the medical care of my pet. That might make me a snob. I don't care. I've been called faaaaaar worse on this blog. *shrugs*
Ida - just wondering... say you had a loved one dying of cancer, and a cure was found, and this cure came to be found through research done with animals. Would you want your relative to be cured even though it was created thanks to animal testing?
ReplyDeleteI think you were way OTT in your criticism of Melanie. I totally understand your passion in regards to the topic, children and animals are my passions in life (studying to be a teacher now after having had 2 children of my own) - sometimes in this life things have to be done in order to serve the greater good of mankind.
FWIW I would be against any testing that was done inhumanely or injustly. But if it is rigorous, and done with respect and great care, and within a certain timeline, with the animals going on to future homes full of love, well I might just have to be on board with that. If this kind of testing could save the life of one of my girls one day, or their future grandchildren, well...
I just don't think we are at the stage yet that would see the need for animal testing to be abandoned. Computers are great, research is phenomenal, and so on... hopefully one day soon. Sooner than later.
Perhaps in the shadow of 9/11 and the 10th Anniversary approaching folks can try and be a little chill for a bit... life is just too precious. I don't much like bitchiness and BS. It's just a big fat waste of time. Civility rocks.
One last thing to mention: while I have not done research on animals while being a vet I did have to take a class on laboratory animals. The biggest thing we learned was the strict standards in place for the treatment of these animals. Someone (Melanie?) mentioned that some studies are held up for year over these standards and that is absolutely true. EVERY step in taken to make this testing as humane as possible. Now, does that mean all labs follow these standards? Obviously not, but the major places that are publishing their findings better be or they will have these committees all over their asses.
ReplyDeleteDo I believe that animal testing is humane? No, but I am very thankful that there are organizations that dictate how these animals are supposed to be treated.
So am I the only one who thought that the chimps weren't so much blissful as really afraid of a new surrounding? I've seen a chimp jump for joy, but the hugs those ones engaged in seemed to be more about reassurance. And notice how they stayed in the doorway? No doubt in time they'll be happier; I'm just leery of projecting that emotion based just on the video.
ReplyDelete@Ida - Btw, 10 seconds googling brought up two vet clinics in Britain and Australia that "spey" animals. Could you please let them know how wrong and positively Melanie-esque they're being?
@Melanie - I can't imagine that anyone but those who love animals would aim to become a vet. (Everyone knows the sadists sign up for dental school). Cheers in your career :).
The only thing I want to add to this is a reply to Caroline - I hate hate HATE when people ask that question, but to answer it for myself, no, it is still not okay to test on animals with the unlikely hope that doing so will yield benefit to humans, including "a family member of mine". Pharma testing on animals is inhumane, no matter how you cut it. If you research the issue, you'll find that such testing is also extraordinarily unhelpful when it comes to humans and there are now other ways to conduct such tests, although these newer style of tests are more expensive.
ReplyDeleteI don't have the time or patience to speak further on this topic because it raises my blood pressure (kudos to the rest of you :)), but here's a quick link to a group in my city that is doing great work raising awareness of animal research in one of our universities, providing info on alternatives and how fucking useless animal testing actually is:
http://stopubcanimalresearch.org/resources/fact-sheets
Lastly, I will say that to be fair, I think there is a difference between what Melanie does for a living and those injecting non-humans with drugs, botox (oh yes) and cosmetics for the "benefit" of humankind. That is all.
Thanks @Unknown for proving my point, that spey is spelled differently. Frankly Ida, you are beyond pathetic that just because *you* think that I spelled spay wrong, that I would be a bad vet. Better get on contacting those clinics that Unknown mentioned and let they know how you think they are wrong. Make sure you only visit doctors who spell words like "foetus" and "oesophagus" correctly in your way, because by your standards, they won't know what the hell they are doing if they can't! Oh yeah, and only read authors who don't have misspelled words and typos on their books; after all, they are writers and how can they be good at their job if they don't spell everything correctly every time? What rigid standards you must live by.
ReplyDeleteI don't test on animals for a living, I really don't get how you can't see that! You are ripping on me for something I (and others) have pointed out multiple times that I don't do. I am in veterinary school, learning to be a vet, not testing animals in a lab. I practice clinical techniques on live animals, just as the rest of my class does, just as people in other vet schools do, only doing things that these animals would experience themselves in a clinic. You are so blinded on how you believe you are right that you can't see what's right in front of you. And your *theory* really is BS and without basis. If it were true, then all 100+ people in my class would be going into research!
Maybe it's time you realized there is a bigger world outside your insular little box. I have tried to be civil and polite, not once attacking you, or saying rude things about you personally, yet you seem incapable in doing the same. I can't believe an adult would have so much trouble having a discussion without resorting to childish behavior. Everyone else on this thread seems to be able to, everyone but you. Frankly, you deserve what people have called you in the past, and probably worse, but @Caroline Little is right: There is too much bitchiness in the world, and you simply aren't worth it.
Thank you so much @Unknown for what you said, I do dearly love animals, which is the only reason why I entered this profession. @Rocket Queen, I appreciate you being fair and noticing the distinction.
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ReplyDelete@Ida Blankenship, I LOVE YOU.
ReplyDeleteDon't let them get to you, Melanie. Watch the Dog Whisperer & take heart knowing that animals don't ruminate over past incidents; they live in the now, and you are doing a lot of good in your chosen profession, to create many more better "nows" for animals who need you!
ReplyDelete