I was going to make a snide comment about how the French judicial system really showed the world it was serious about hate crimes when it fined John Galliano 1 euro for his anti-Semitic rants. But, you know what? At least France has a hate crime law they actually use, so I can't be too snide. Facing jail time, he was actually fined 6,000 euros, but it was suspended provided he is not arrested for the next five years.
This is a very interesting case from France because it goes against everything we stand for here in the US. It is very difficult here to use hate crime laws unless someone is attacked physically because anyone can say anything they want because of free speech. If Galliano was in a bar here and said the same things he said in France, hopefully he would have still been fired, but nothing else would have happened to him. Probably would have been kicked out of the bar but he would not have faced jail time.
My problem with France's law is that it effectively makes everyone be completely PC all the time and never express an opinion that contradicts the chosen line set forth by the government. So, what that does is then people move underground to say these things or keep them bottled up to explode at some later point. Just because the government makes you say the right things does not change the beliefs of people. I would much rather have them able to speak their mind so I know who they are and what they think rather than listen to some standard PC thing in which they don't believe.
Plus, I think the law in France kind of makes people even more sensitive. If someone says something another does not agree with, instead of discussing it back and forth, they don't because maybe a third person will pick up the phone and call the police to tell on them. I think I will stick with free speech.
It will be interesting to see who hires him. I hope he gets the help he needs, it's clear he's deeply troubled.
ReplyDeleteExactly. Thought crime laws are a bad idea.
ReplyDeleteTotally agree. Freedom of speech is the way to go-once the government takes that away it is a slippery slope. That's what makes America so great.
ReplyDeleteNOW----many people confuse freedom of speech and people saying whatever they like without any backlash. When you use your freedom of speech, others have the right to use their own freedome of speech to knock you down a peg or two. Speak out against you. Boycott your products. Delete you from their Facebook friends list, etc... But a crime? That's where I draw the line.
I completely agree with you Amartel.
ReplyDelete(and Ice Angel) :D
ReplyDeleteAs much as I hate to point to Minority Report, I'm pointing to Minority Report.
Also a bunch of novels written by people like Orwell and Rand.
Scary stuff
I disagree with Enty. Because of growing lack of respect between people, and the overuse excuse of having rights while trampling on others', France had found it necessary to keep order within a very diverse nation by including laws obligating anyone living within its borders of disrespecting prosecuted minorities (again, in France, not the US): Jews and Homosexuals.
ReplyDeleteYou ever utter publicly derogatory comments towards a homosexual, the same would ensue. You would be legally prosecuted by the state.
Now whatever your ugly leanings and beliefs, after what happened to an all-mighty Galliano, would you ever publicly insult a Jewish person?
Nope. Lesson learned. Keep it withing the confines of your home, no one else needs to hear about it. And from my point of view, a better future for the next generation where homophobia and nazi support have no place in a civilized world. They're better off that way.
"At least France has a hate crime law they actually use, so I can't be too snide."
ReplyDeleteIndeed.
America has Christian zealots (or, at least, people who *claim* to follow and/or have a relationship with Christ) who holler and cause shameful disturbances at events like funerals -- circumstances which should call for somber and tranquil behavior from anyone in the vicinity. But, of course, those idiots trot out the First Amendment whenever anyone challenges their invective and right to protest...whatever the hell it is they're so pissed off about.
Personally, I wouldn't mind if if hate crime laws were expanded to recognize the dangerous power of rhetoric. This culture has gone too, too far. Yeah, we enjoy the freedom of limitless self-expression, but there are also far too many people who've taken advantage of and abused that liberty. Words *can* lead to violence -- easily. And when it comes to Fred Phelps, I frankly wish that someone WOULD beat his ass.
We live in a country where eight year-olds are playing shit like Mortal Kombat and Grand Theft Auto, yet parents are concerned about whether or not freakin' MUPPETS are bumping uglies. We're okay with the widespread availability of violent literature and media, though. Okay.
I know I just went off on five different tangents. It's just strange to me, is all.
(stands up clapping)
ReplyDeleteBrava, Ida...brava.
What she said...
I'm all about free speech. It allows Kanye West to say "George Bush doesn't care about black people" and it allows me to say "Obama doesn't care about Jews".
ReplyDeleteI've got no problem with this (It's one euro) and I totally agree with Ida. Point made. Hate is fucking ugly.
ReplyDeleteRight on Ida...
ReplyDeleteJust look at our President...I think most of the problems he has with the Republican party is simply because they can't stand a black man in the White House.
So very sad.
MISCH - why did you have to make this about race? The Republican party can't stand that a socialist / Marxist / Alinsky-ist / job-killer is in the White House. Or do you subscribe to the Jeanine Garafalo (not going to bother with sp on this person) theory that GOP runner Herman Cain must be a mole?
ReplyDeleteWell, I totally DISagree with Ida. I cannot believe you would really want to live in a society where the government has the power to forbid you from expressing your opinion, no matter how stupid or ignorant it is. Of course, while we do have free speech in this country, that does not give people the right to spew whatever they want and not have to deal with the fallout. If Galliano had spouted off here, he'd probably have been fired, be the subject of public ridicule and scorn, and that would be it (i.e., Mel Gibson). But the government has no right to intervene. The government does not have the right to tell people what they can and cannot say (barring providing for public safety).
ReplyDeleteI am also deeply opposed to hate crime legislation, for several reasons: it punishes a person's thoughts; it violates equal protection under the law; and it is a violation of double jeopardy.
I just have to laugh at "socialist / Marxist / Alinsky-ist / job-killer " Just wow.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteAh Brakewater, you and I will never agree....but you are entitled to your opinion even though I think you're totally off base.
ReplyDelete@MISCH -- "I think most of the problems he has with the Republican party is simply because they can't stand a black man in the White House."
ReplyDeleteWell, I totally agree, if only because each time I hear a Conservative begin some rant about how s/he hates Obama, it invariably begins or ends with the following phrase: "...and it's not because he's black..." Uh huh. SURE. I'm sure you didn't even notice his race until, like, five minutes ago, right?
God, can you imagine the brick they'd collectively shit if a BLACK WOMAN ever ran for office?! I don't even think that Klingondoleeza Rice stands a chance.
Rush Limbaugh has told his adoring public -- on air -- how he thinks Oreo should name a cookie after our President. Um. Yay for his right to say that, I guess? But does he realize how it's not 1953 anymore?
I'll criticize Obama all damned day for his pisspoor environmental record, but all the demands to see his birth certificate -- and the current skepticism regarding his ancestry -- proves how racist hate speech is still alive and well here in the States. Limbaugh proves it. So does O'Reilly. So do all those other Faux "News" fucktards who should be jailed for misleading the public and feeding a bunch of moronic, xenophobic lemmings catastrophic lies for the past decade or so.
In fact, I wonder if Gabrielle Giffords would have been shot if Palin hadn't been allowed to insinuate that Republicans need to start "targeting" Democrats -- not to mention Palin's shameful use of crosshairs on her webpage to demonstrate this idea.
I'm chuckling with you, Rocket Queen. Hard.
ReplyDeleteIn USA ,you have free speeches but you can't see nipples or say f**k in screen whereas in France no one can say garbage but you can see nipples and swear at the tv
ReplyDeleteLol, right? Up here we learned that socialism and Marxism is something totally different, but hey, it was good for a laugh! God, I guess that makes Canadians full-on commies!
ReplyDeleteIda - you have to bring Gabby into this? It is fact that she was shot by a lunatic who identified as Liberal, and was obsessed with her before Palin came onto the scene. And everybody uses crosshairs. Obama just recently accused the GOP of "putting a gun to the heads of the American people" and Biden called the tea party terrorists. Is that "responsible rhetoric?"
ReplyDeleteRocketQueen - how would you describe Obama's politics?
Ida, the man who shot Giffords was a registered Democrat and committed liberal. As well as entirely insane. Why are you still trotting out that ridiculous Sarah Palin accusation?
ReplyDeleteMy home state, Wisconsin, passed a hate crimes law a few years ago to add additional penalties to people who attack others on the basis of ethnic origin. It's been used almost exclusively against black people who attack white people.
Don't like hate crimes legislation. It penalizes thought. Penalize the action instead.
It's a shame some people don't realize what a slippery slope they endorse, Texshan.
ReplyDeleteI completely agree with everything you said.
"So do all those other Faux "News" fucktards who should be jailed for misleading the public and feeding a bunch of moronic, xenophobic lemmings catastrophic lies for the past decade or so."
ReplyDeleteRQ, does that go for all of the "fucktards" over at MSNBC, too? Or just the people with whom you disagree?
Sorry, I meant Ida. Not Rocket Queen.
ReplyDeleteOh, it's okay, Texshan. According to some people who read this blog, Rocket Queen and I are actually symbiotic. I doubt she takes offense.
ReplyDeleteAnd I don't watch any televised news. I get most of my info from the BBC. To be perfectly honest, I trust them way more than most American news outlets.
I still maintain that our culture has gone too far -- the ubiquitous torture porn, the casual bigotry hurled at the President, the privileges granted to people who are aware how they can bellow their hateful views in public without punishment. People in this country are both verbally *and* physically violent, and I think the two are pretty interconnected.
Ida - Can you please give me an example of the casual bigotry you mentioned towards the President. And also the verbally and physically violent. Thanks.
ReplyDelete"I still maintain that our culture has gone too far..."
ReplyDeleteYou're so right about this. I don't think anti-hate speech laws are the answer, but we've got to do something about where we're heading! The question is, what?
"ubiquitous torture porn"
I saw a commercial yesterday, and fucking IFC is supporting "Human Centipede 2." I still question whether the UK should have banned the first one, but for fuck's sake, a mainstream company should NOT be supporting that kind of filth!!! (And for the record, I'm a huge horror fan, and have watched a lot of torture porn, but I think it needs to stay a subculture, not be advertised on basic cable!)
brakewater, for #1, watch the Daily Show - they have tons of examples, and for #2, just read a damend newspaper. Oops, I forgot, they don't really report real news any more, do they? As Ida said, listen to BBC - they do better reporting on America than we do these days.
ReplyDelete*damned
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteIda, I will agree with you that in some instances our society has gone too far. There is no concept of civility in our culture. People hurl invective at others and think it's funny. Others are famous for sleeping with married men, taking their clothes off in public, committing crimes, being drunks, etc. It's no longer necessary to actually be a productive member of society to be rich and famous anymore.
ReplyDeleteWhere we differ, I think, is in how we think it should be dealt with. You think the government should play a role in it, apparently. I don't. It's not up to the government to tell me how I should speak, live, think, and feel. If I wanted that, I would move to North Korea.
However, I would remind you that when you call people who don't agree with you names, you are contributing to the incivility in society. Maxine Waters can tell Tea Party members to go to hell, Jimmy Hoffa Jr. can call them sons of bitches, and liberals laugh and cheer. I'm not even in the Tea Party, and I find that really offensive. Likewise, your stance that all criticism of Obama is based on racism is offensive. I can't stand him because he and I disagree on just about every topic there is in the world. Him being half-black doesn't have anything to do with it. I can't stand Harold Reid or Nancy Pelosi, either. Yet I know that if I dare to criticize him, his supporters will accuse me of being a bigot rather than listen to my criticisms, because that's easier. If you just hurl accusations at someone rather than really listen to them, it's easy to be complacent and smug.
However, and I say this for the good of all mankind, if the French government wants to control their citizens' actions more, they could start by requiring Galliano to shave off that ridiculous broken landing strip on his face. Every time I see it, it skeeves me out.
Nah, I'm a proud Canadian, so I'm staying out of this one since I don't vote down there. Still chuckling, though.
ReplyDeletePeople who think that the government should not regulate our actions are wrong. IT ALREADY DOES.
ReplyDeleteAll laws govern our actions, our words, and there always consequences. If we were free, we would not be prosecuted for killing, speaking, making fun of Bush, lying under oath, or breaking any other written law.
The world is evolving, so is the Law. Many centuries ago, certain laws did not exist, take only a few decades ago, there were no laws on Insider Trading, now there are. It is an evolution.
In France, the state has realized that there is a profound need for laws against homophobia and racism, for the country to live in peace. Good for them.
We should have the courage to stand up for what is right and understand that to be a morally upstanding citizen, is to abide the Law, and to realize that our actions and lives need governing within certain parameters to protect us from extremism, and the prosecution of innocents for simply being, for example gay. Or Jewish. Or black. Or democrat. Or republican.
"brakewater, for #1, watch the Daily Show - they have tons of examples, and for #2, just read a damend newspaper."
ReplyDeleteSeriously, did you just tell me to watch the Comedy Channel? For News? Really?
I think you have proven my point. You want me to reference a comedy show and the BBC is the state run - Social Media arm of the UK(it's ok - the UK actually admits they are socialist. Unlike our President).
Give me real examples! Real! Please send me one link. And I know they are out there, every movement has their nutjobs. I will send you 100 back on SEIU and liberal thugs committing violence on good people. People who just want, you know, people to pay their "fair share" on health insurance and pension plans.
@Texshan -- "I would remind you that when you call people who don't agree with you names, you are contributing to the incivility in society. Maxine Waters can tell Tea Party members to go to hell, Jimmy Hoffa Jr. can call them sons of bitches, and liberals laugh and cheer."
ReplyDeleteOkay. Point taken. One reason why I don't even watch The Daily Show very often -- though Jon Stewart DEFINITELY mirrors my own views -- is that I get tired of the name-calling, too. I just find that certain rhetoric is either meant to stimulate anger, or preach to an already-existing choir. I don't need my ire fanned, you know? I'm already pissed because I pay attention. I don't need the media to feed that.
However, many Liberals react that way out of indignation and anger -- when people who are richer, greedier, and more powerful than you attempt to remove your rights, you react with whatever weapon you have -- and since many of us have no interest in gun ownership, words are definitely common ammunition.
It seems to many of us that Conservatives are more concerned with restricting privileges and placing bans on social services than they are in making our country a healthier, more enjoyable place for people of all ages, genders, and socioeconomic backgrounds to live. Which sucks.
And what I GENUINELY don't understand about Conservatives is how they say they want limited governmental involvement in our daily affairs -- but what do you call banning same-sex marriage? Or restricting a young woman's access to birth control? Or stopping a Hispanic person on the highway for no reason because he or she *might* be an illegal immigrant? It just seems to me as if Liberals would like to GRANT more rights, and Conservatives are pretty hellbent on restricting them.
I can't really blame, say, a homosexual couple who refers to someone like Michelle Bachmann as Biblethumpy McCrazyEyes. Yeah, it's a name, and it's not very nice, but it's also a tag that's she's kinda EARNED through her own deeds, speech, and actions.
Anyway. I don't think that anyone is going to have an epiphany here, but I DO appreciate your NOT tossing out the "S" word to describe Obama. Because THAT is absolutely asinine.
Ida - Obama is a socialist. If that what you meant by the "S" word. It is not a dirty word. Class warfare on the rich, taxing them more, to pay for the poor, is by definition, socialism. You do know what the Margaret Thatcher quote is?
ReplyDeleteI appreciate the debate. I want the government out of my life completely. And I am gay. If I want to get married, I will get a lawyer. I respect the religion of people who feel that marriage is between a man and a women, I just don't agree. But I respect. I happily patron Chick-Fil-et and Target as I please. I think boycotts against companies are a waste of time.
I also own guns. I have the right to defend my property. In my state, I have the castle rights. In other states, you have to meet your invader with the same instrument (if they have a bat, you have to use a bat). In some states you can't shoot an invader in your home.
Think I've gone off topic. I'm a 42 gay conservative female gun slinger, and proud of it. The liberal meme is to paint me as a racist, and I am highly offended by that.
I can't stop laughing at "Biblethumpy McCrazyEyes"! I know there's a serious debate going on here but that's fucking funny.
ReplyDeletebrakewater -- "Class warfare on the rich..."
ReplyDeleteOh, BOO HOO. Those poor, downtrodden, bedraggled billionaires! Pass a cup. Let's start a fund for them. Such a haaaaard life they lead, truly. Who do we think we are, really, demanding that they contribute their fair share?
CRY ME A RIVER.
"And I am gay. If I want to get married, I will get a lawyer."
Um, hiring a lawyer isn't going to do you any good if you're restricted from marrying the person of your choice. An attorney can't help you if you want to get hitched to your dog or your sister, either. Many influential conservatives think same-sex marriage is just as abhorrent as bestiality or incest. Which is beyond absurd, but you know, whatever.
I *have* heard of Margaret Thatcher.
Have you heard of Warren Buffett? He's got more money than practically anybody, and he would disagree with you. Vehemently.
Rita -- "Good for them?" Really? Good for them for telling people how they can and cannot express themselves? The only reason you are saying "good for them" is because France is going after people you happen to disagree with. If they prosecuted someone you agreed with, something tells me that you wouldn't be so quick to hop on the "let's criminalize speech!" bandwagon.
ReplyDelete" ... Our actions and lives need governing within certain parameters to protect us from extremism." Wow. Do you realize how incredibly patronizing that is? I don't need the government regulating my life. Nor do you. Nor does anyone else, unless they are a criminal or an actual threat to others. Go spend some time in a country that governs citizens' actions and lives. I doubt you would think it's so great. It sounds to me like you take the freedoms we have for granted and don't appreciate them.
Ida -- re: same-sex marriage, I have no problem with civil partnerships in which the people involved enjoy all of the same rights and responsibilities as a "married" couple. But for me, and many others, marriage is a holy estate. It is a religious action. At the same time, many religions believe homosexuality is a sin. If same-sex couples could legally marry, then clergy would be forced to perform a religious ceremony blessing a union they believe -- based on their faith -- is a sin. Clergy have always been able to choose not to perform the ceremony for couples they have issues with. However, if same-sex marriage were a legal right, the first time a clergy member refused to perform the service he or she would be sued. So basically it's the state saying, "I don't care what your beliefs are. They are not as important as the right of this couple to force you, specifically, to do something you don't want to do."
Also, I don't know of any Protestant group that wants to limit access to birth control. I know plenty that want to limit access to abortion, which is not the same thing.
As for the illegal immigrant scenario, if you are referring to Arizona, the law specifically said that an officer could only ask for ID if they were pulling the person over for another reason. They were barred from pulling over and demanding ID from someone just because they looked Mexican.
Ida, the wealthiest 1 percent of the US population earns 19 percent of the income but pays 37 percent of the income tax. The top 10 percent pay 68 percent of the tab. Meanwhile, the bottom 50 percent — those below the median income level — earn 13 percent of the income but pay only 3 percent of the taxes. So, while it's fashionable to complain about how "rich" people don't pay enough in taxes -- as if they owe it to everyone to pay a disproportionate amount -- it's simply not the case.
ReplyDeletePersonally, I would abolish income tax completely. Charge a federal sales tax of 10% on everything except food, and 18% on luxury items -- yachts, cars over $50k, furs, etc. But that's just me.
Ida - Do you concede that 46% of tax filers in USA do not pay any taxes? So why should the "rich" have to pay 40-50-60%?
ReplyDeleteI'll do the quote for you, even though you know it - The problem with Socialism is you eventually run out of other's people money.
Personal responsibility.
Speaking of Warren Buffet - His company is fighting with the IRS over back taxes not payed. So when you are an eccentric, old , billionaire, and a favorite by the most unqualified President ever, you get to say as many quotes as you want about taxes. Even though you aren't paying them. I will send you the link if you doubt me.
Texshan - I think we could be friends.
ReplyDelete"However, if same-sex marriage were a legal right, the first time a clergy member refused to perform the service he or she would be sued."
ReplyDeleteThat's actually an interesting thought, but I also wonder how many same-sex couples actually *care* about having religious rites. So many homosexuals have been pushed from their clergies or have willingly left their congregations due to feeling ostracized. Either way, I think a priest SHOULD have the right to turn down the opportunity to officiate a ceremony if he's not completely comfortable with it -- but I also can't really see a couple doggedly pursuing a church wedding if they don't feel totally accepted, anyway. Plenty of folks get hitched in ceremonies that don't invoke any deity whatsoever. Marriage isn't just for the pious anymore.
"I don't know of any Protestant group that wants to limit access to birth control. I know plenty that want to limit access to abortion, which is not the same thing."
I know YOU might have enough common sense to separate contraception from actual abortion, but MANY very religious people can't seem to make the same distinction -- particularly men of a certain age who have no clue what it's like to have a uterus. They would love to not only ban abortion, but they're also trying to infringe on our right to obtain cheap and easily accessible birth control. It's a pretty slippery slope.
And as for the racial profiling argument...eh. I know FAR too many Afro-American folks who are responsible drivers and car-owners and have still been pulled over and interrogated for no reason. The current anti-immigrant vibe in this country is pretty hardcore right now. I see bumper stickers CONSTANTLY that say things like "If you don't speak English, go home" and other similarly lovely sentiments. I just have a hard time believing that cops ONLY pull over the Latino people who are already speeding or have outdated tags, etc.
"Do you concede that 46% of tax filers in USA do not pay any taxes?"
ReplyDeleteThose people are THE POOREST PEOPLE in this country. THEY HAVE NO MONEY. NOOOOOONE. You can't squeeze blood from a frickin' turnip. Are you aware of the ENORMOUS swath of the American population that currently sits below the poverty level?
Not everyone who is destitute is a shiftless welfare recipient scratching off lottery tickets at your area convenience store. Some people are incredibly disadvantaged and lack familial or monetary help. You can't begin to fathom the various circumstances that might lead a person to poverty.
"the most unqualified President ever..."
*snort*
THAT jackass left office in '08. Funny how you NEVER hear a peep out of him.
And I will kindly decline your link. Frankly, I have doubts as to the veracity of your news sources.
Texshan - You already ARE governed by laws. The same laws that protect you from murderers are dictating your behavior.
ReplyDeleteAnd those same laws are what define a criminal. Breaking the law makes you a criminal. If said law did not exist, the person would not be defined as criminal.
And I do live in a country governed by laws. So do you.
Wouldn't you rather have a written law by citizens living in today's world, then say narrow-minded bigots who lived centuries ago?
'Personally, I would abolish income tax completely. Charge a federal sales tax of 10% on everything except food, and 18% on luxury items -- yachts, cars over $50k, furs, etc. But that's just me'
ReplyDeleteYOU DO KNOW THAT THIS IS THE BASIS FOR SOCIALISM?
Texshan, I personally have no problem with gay people being married. I don't think they would be able to sue religious ministers as there are civil servants who can perform marriages. We call them Marriage Celebrants here in Australia. I think it is sad when two people love each other and can't be married. I ask you to think about how you would feel if you and the person you loved were unable to hold hands, declare your love for each other, be married. I think love is a beautiful thing. I respect that you feel differently to me on this matter.
ReplyDeleteAs for laws, I think we need to maintain our own thoughts otherwise we could have another situation such as Nazi Germany. It started off very well. Hitler was Time's Man of the Year. Then, it was horrific. May we never forget the folly of following a government so completely, and losing oneself so totally. While the debates on here can at times be heated, better we have them.
Finally, I agree with Texshan about abolishing income tax, or making it one level across the board, and a lower level at that. I am not rich, just want to make that clear, but I do believe if there was a flat tax rate, then the rich people would be more prepared to pay it. I myself am sick of people who are capable of working (disability and mental illness excluded) who rort the system and we have generations that don't contribute towards the running of the country.
Wow! Enty just loves throwing these little tidbits out there to get us all in a tizzy, huh? Ida-I've sparred with you before on this forum, but you might want to rethink your view on laws that allow the government to inhibit your free speech. With the right people in charge, your comments on Christians might just seem bigoted and land you in jail. You seem to want to only uphold the rights of the people that YOU agree with and YOU support, but that is a slippery slope. There is a reason we have a first amendment right. I suppose then any anti-Obama comment is racism then and therefore we cannot criticize the President and can be arrested for it, huh? Well Natalie Maines didn't get arrested for her comments, but she sure ticked off a lot of people who stopped buying her records. That's the American way. Think about it.
ReplyDelete@Texshan -- "Personally, I would abolish income tax completely. Charge a federal sales tax of 10% on everything except food, and 18% on luxury items -- yachts, cars over $50k, furs, etc. But that's just me."
ReplyDeleteBelieve it or not, I actually agree. Although I'd put, like, an 95% tax on furs. It would be my special tax rate for the ethically bankrupt or something (hey, it's *my* fantasy).
I already pay a 10% food tax where I live. I also think that they should tax the shit out of cigarettes and alcohol -- but conservatives in my state are pretty concerned with keeping tobacco prices as low as possible, partly in order to appease smokers and their "rights."
Also-we've gone way off topic. This thread was supposed to be about freedom of speech-in other words, should someone be arrested for saying something viewed as offensive to the government. Scary stuff!!! Just be sure that's what you want because if you get it, much of what you are saying may someday be used against you in a court of law!
ReplyDelete@Ice Angel -- "With the right people in charge, your comments on Christians might just seem bigoted and land you in jail."
ReplyDeleteLOL. Okay. Well, the current crop of GOP candidates would probably love *nothing* more than to toss heathens like me in the pokey. They definitely love to fill up cells with non-violent offenders!
And I have no beef with people who criticize Obama for valid issues. Like I said in this very thread, I think his environmental record is absolutely pitiful. But I DO have a problem with people who call him derogatory names related to his ethnicity -- and I think that calling him a ~Socialist~ is just a boneheaded, misguided, uninformed trend.
So then Ida you concur then correct? Be careful what you wish for....you wouldn't want any of those people to come into power and help make it lawful to imprison you for your opinions, correct? Good. I am glad we finally agree on something.
ReplyDeleteP.S. I too have a problem with people using racist language, as my daughter is African American. But I still don't think someone should be arrested for it. And as for the reason why people start a criticism of Obama with "it's not because he's black," particurarly when speaking with a Democrat, is because they have a pretty good idea that they will, in fact, be called a racist if they don't.
For the record-I am a proud Republican and don't consider race when determining my leaders any more than I used it in choosing my family. And I do find it hurtful when people accuse me of being racist because I don't like Obama's policies.
Friends forever, Brakewater! I'm in Houston, too!
ReplyDeleteRita, I can't decide if you honestly don't understand what I am saying or if you are being deliberately obtuse. I know we are a nation of laws. What I am saying is, laws against free speech are an infringement on our rights and have no place in our society. Outlawing speech is the same as outlawing thoughts. And no, the law does not stop me from committing murder or stealing. My own ideals and morality do. The law only exists to punish those who commit crimes. A law does not stop the crime from happening in the first place. Also, I don't think you really understand what socialism is.
If someone is over 35 and a natural-born citizen of the USA, they are technically qualified to be president. Bush and Obama meet both of those standards. Therefore neither of them were unqualified.
Ida, I am with you on the furs! I loathe people who wear furs with the white-hot passion of a thousand burning suns. I have embarassed my mother at church several times by asking old biddies if they are aware that the coats they are wearing (the instant it dips below 70 degrees) were obtained through the use of anal electrocution. I then suggest they try it sometime.
Feraltart, I can guarandamntee that if same-sex marriage were legal, gay couples would sue people unwilling to perform the ceremony. And the people would not have a legal right to stand on.
"Those people are THE POOREST PEOPLE in this country. THEY HAVE NO MONEY. NOOOOOONE. You can't squeeze blood from a frickin' turnip. Are you aware of the ENORMOUS swath of the American population that currently sits below the poverty level? "
ReplyDeleteOh Ida. 50% of Americans are not poor, they just don't pay taxes. They make plenty of money, if you consider 50K money.
Flat tax all the way, then everyone can pay their fair share.
Government handouts are good on a temporary basis. Unemployment is up to 99 weeks now. Seriously?
@Ice Angel -- "you wouldn't want any of those people to come into power and help make it lawful to imprison you for your opinions, correct? Good. I am glad we finally agree on something."
ReplyDeletePartly. But I STILL think that inflammatory *invective* -- that is, hate speech that's meant to aggravate or exacerbate certain members of an audience to the point of a violent physical reaction -- should at least be FINED. There's a difference between publicly stating a controversial opinion via a blog, editorial, etc. and picketing a slain soldier's funeral while screaming "God hates fags" over and over again. And let me just say that I KNOW how the Westboro Baptist Church is not representative of ALL Christian denominations -- and I don't even think they'd label themselves as Republican, either. They are a freaky, fucked-up cult who hide behind the guise of religious freedom. Regardless, if a group of Liberals chose to pull a similarly shameful public stunt with the purpose of unsettling and enraging people, I'd have a problem with that, too. Forgetting politics for a second -- there has just GOT to be a limit. The idea of American autonomy is wonderful, but I just wonder if we're too crazed and far-gone as a culture to adequately and safely govern our own behavior.
"And as for the reason why people start a criticism of Obama with "it's not because he's black," particurarly when speaking with a Democrat, is because they have a pretty good idea that they will, in fact, be called a racist if they don't."
I don't care if people dislike Obama -- as long as they don't drop the S-word, I'll listen to a diatribe against him. I understand how folks might have their various reasons for dissing the dude. But it's probably just best to say "I dislike Obama because of _____ and ____ and ____" and omit his race entirely. The fact that so many people choose to include his ethnicity in arguments that have *nothing* to do with race is just bothersome, and it's something I've noticed a LOT of Obama's detractors doing.
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ReplyDeleteSpeaking of taxes, I kind of loved this:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.businessinsider.com/jon-stewart-taxes-2011-8
Ida - I don't understand why you find "socialist" so offensive you won't even use the word.
ReplyDeleteObama is a socialist, a radical, a far left-wing, etc. He is on record for redistributing the wealth, for saying that coal factories should rightfully go bankrupt, for wanting to fundamentally transform America, for cancelling oil drilling in the Gulf by permitoriam, etc. Job killer. The only jobs he cares about are union jobs and public sector jobs.
The media covered for him in 2007-08. It's time to wake up.
I hope free speech laws don't change, or I will go straight to jail for vocalizing my opinion.
Texshan: there must be a line between free speech, and speech impending on others' freedom.
ReplyDeleteHowever, you are too aggressive and abrasive, I know, your right to free speech, to appreciate others' point of view. You should watch out there with the long paragraphs, you seem to contradict yourself often. Makes you seem too obtuse in understanding point of views differing from your day-to-day extreme right to extreme denial. Good night. Have a safe life to live in my cocooned state.
Rita, I'm too aggressive and abrasive? How so? Just how have I contradicted myself? What am I supposedly in denial about? And what have I written that makes me seem obtuse? Or is it just that I don't agree with you, so therefore I must be stupid? I also love how you fling accusations at me and then conveniently say good night, so you don't have to actually back anything up. Nice.
ReplyDeleteBy the way, what Galliano said was incredibly offensive. But he didn't "impede on anyone else's freedom." And for the time being -- at least in the USA, if not France -- being offensive isn't against the law.
Oh, good lord. You're WAY too mired in Rupert Murdochian conspiracies.
ReplyDelete"Obama is a socialist,"
Our country is too controlled by Capitalism for Socialism to gain a mere foothold. Even if Obama WERE a Socialist, he'd have an impossible time trying to break up all those stubborn economic hierarchies. Calling him a "Socialist" is something one uneducated person decided to do because it sounds vaguely scary in that ~Commie~ kinda way, and then millions more people followed suit. Kinda like how he was supposedly born in Kenya? Yeah, that's not true, either.
At any rate, you're wrong.
"a radical, a far left-wing, etc."
TRUE radicals and far left-wingers hate him as much as you do. Wrong.
"He is on record for redistributing the wealth"
"on record"? You mean he SAID "I redistributed the wealth"? Or is that just something you heard Ann Coulter say? At any rate: wrong.
"for saying that coal factories should rightfully go bankrupt,"
He may have explored OTHER sources of energy, but that certainly doesn't mean that he thinks coal miners should lose their jobs, nor has he ever asserted as much. Wrong.
"for wanting to fundamentally transform America,"
Yes, GOD FORBID. Because this country was just a PERFECT PLACE when he was sworn into office. NEVER any room for improvement here in the U.S. of A. We are a FLAWLESS culture. We need to remain stagnant, if anything.
(you're wrong again)
"for cancelling oil drilling in the Gulf by permitoriam, etc."
Actually, Obama has completely kissed the asses of Big Oil since he took office. He may have spearheaded the cancellation of drilling in some locations, but he's definitely eased up on regulations regarding drilling in other areas.
Again: Wrong.
"Job killer. The only jobs he cares about are union jobs and public sector jobs."
"Job killer"? Seriously? I STILL fail to see how Obama was supposed to miraculously sponge up the catastrophic mess George W. Bush made of our economy. I'm sure Rick Perry can swoop into the Oval Office and just fix everything in a week, though.
Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.
Texshan - I don't know why they are beating up on you. I find myself so much more offensive, lol. If being conservative = offensive.
ReplyDeleteIda, Westboro Baptist is not only not representative of ALL Christian denominations, they are not representative of ANY denominations. The only reason they call themselves "Baptist" is because Baptists (not Southern Baptists) have no central governing authority. Therefore, they are able to call themselves a Baptist church and enjoy all of the privileges and protections of religious freedom even though they are not in any way Baptist or even a church. They are a boil on the butt of humanity, and I firmly believe that they will pay for their continuous hateful behavior in the hereafter, especially since they do it while invoking God's name. They are assholes.
ReplyDeleteThe reason why people who criticize Obama always say, "it's not because he's black" is because if they don't, they will immediately be accused of disliking him for that very reason. They are trying to state upfront that race has nothing to do with it, because otherwise Obama's supporters will discard everything they say and play the race card. It's preemptive.
Brakewater, and tonight Obama will advocate extending the unemployment limit. Sigh.
You might as well be saying "nana nana nana" to me with your "wrong wrong wrong"
ReplyDeleteSee Joe the Plumber - just want to spread the wealth around.
See interview with the San Francisco Chronicle (youtube) = bankrupting coal companies.
Job Killer - See NLEB and Boeing in South Carolina, see Shell in Alaska.
See Obama telling Brazil that we would happily buy their oil while telling oil companies in the USA they can't drill.
Google all that fucking shit.
I respectfully am done here. Nothing left to say. I am right, you are...well I was going to say wrong but then I would stoop to your level of plugging my ears and saying, nana nana nana.
Now Obama is going to speak and tell us how rich people suck , oil companies are evil, corporate jet owners are bad, and if you are against him you are putting party before country.
Re oil companies:
ReplyDelete"Mitt Romney, the former governor of Massachusetts, assailed the federal government and President Obama in particular for what he said were overbearing regulations on oil drilling, coal mining and nuclear energy.
“We are an energy-rich nation and we’re living like an energy-poor nation,” he said, asserting that Mr. Obama had halted offshore drilling, blocked construction of new coal plants, slowed development of nuclear plants and failed to develop natural gas trapped in shale formations.
But those claims are largely untrue. While Mr. Obama declared a moratorium on deep-water drilling in the Gulf of Mexico after the BP spill in 2010, the government began granting permits again earlier this year and activity is approaching pre-spill levels. The administration recently announced a major lease sale in the western Gulf of Mexico and gave provisional approval to a Shell project in the Arctic off the coast of Alaska. And while a number of utilities have canceled plans to build new coal plants, that is largely because demand for electricity has slowed, not because of new federal regulations. "
/http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/08/us/politics/08check.html?_r=1&ref=politics
nytimes might as well be called DNC.com. not credible. Why don't you ask Texas about the demand for electricity.
ReplyDeleteWhat would be, in your opinion, a credible news source? Fox?
ReplyDeleteHow long will people like Ida blame Bush for the lack of jobs?
ReplyDeleteIt's been what, almost 4 years now?
BTW Ida, if you are so in tune with politics you would know that the Bush folks CANNOT STAND Rick Perry.
So you are wrong in lumping the 2 together.
Just because they live in the same state does not make them best friends.
This is an exercise in futility.
“Rather than being political, the [Gulf of Mexico] permitting drag is more reflective of the increased work required to issue each permit and the limited bureaucratic resources available,” the BER report stated. “As a result, we continue to expect continued slow recovery of the deepwater permitting rate.”
ReplyDeleteThat rate is “unsustainable,” the report claimed, and will lead to the departure of between eight and 20 rigs from the Gulf. That is in addition to the 12 rigs that have left since June of last year. Once rigs leave the Gulf, they are not likely to return. “[I]t’s going to be difficult to move them back once they are drilling in say Nigeria or Brazil,” Heritage’s David Kreutzer noted in July.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2775542/posts
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ReplyDelete@Texshan -- For what it's worth, I've never personally found you overly abrasive. And hell, I've seen you get WAY more riled up on other threads. ;-) Anyway, I know full well that our views are pretty different, but I enjoy *how* you say things. If you're vehement about something, it translates to emotionally-driven writing. That's a given. But I've generally found your comments to be insightful, eloquent, and impassioned. Again: I know we differ politically and probably always will, but I just wanted to say that.
ReplyDeleteOh, and thank you for telling off those fur-wearing hags in your church, too.
I think some countries in Europe just don't want to see what happened during WWII in their countries to ever happen again and are very sensitive to anti-Semitic remarks as a result. Given the human race' propensity for genocide, nationalism, homophobia and xenophobia, I don't see anything wrong with some asshat being fined for spewing hate.
ReplyDeleteI'd like to see the likes of Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck held accountable for the nonsense, racism and outright hatred they spread on a daily basis. As long as we have stupid humans on the planet who shoot for the lowest common denominator of human behavior, and who will prop up and even follow the biddings of a Hitler hell bent on a Holocaust, or a radio DJ telling the Hutus to go rape and kill the Tutsies, then we probably need hate crime laws.
Here we go again.
ReplyDeleteMadLyb - Can you please give a specific, attributable quote of Rush or Glenn spewing racism or hatred? thanks. I'll wait.
God, how I would LOVE to split our country in two - give the conservatives the southern half and the liberals the north, then see where each side is in a few years!
ReplyDeleteMooshki - You can already see that by looking at blue states ("north") vs red states ("south"). Detroit, Chicago, Cleveland, et al have the worse unemployment numbers and violence in the country. California, Michigan and Ohio are going under.
ReplyDeleteYour racism is deceiving you. Blacks are moving to the south in droves. You just assume that "southern half" are "racist". That is insulting.
What are Hutus and Tutsies?
ReplyDeleteI listen to talk radio all of the time and I've never heard of either.
Mooshki I am with you 100%. Let's do that and see how well the northern states do.
Granted, it will affect the southern states as well, but not as badly considering that we are much more accessible to different borders.
Or, you know, we could try and get along with each other and realize that everyone has a right to their own (not government mandated) opinion.
+1 Suhyphe
ReplyDeleteRwandan genocide happened under Clinton's watch...Along with the Croatia/Serbia war.
You guys just gave me THE BEST idea. I'm going to have the seats of my next Land Rover lined with nice, soft rabbit fur. :)
ReplyDeletedon't forget the lambskin. That's what my Jaguar has. With wood paneling from the Brazilian rain forest.
ReplyDeleteObviously none of the commenters here have been to France lately. Free speech is very much alive and well in this xenophobic country. Especially on issues of race. They hate blacks, the Roma and essentially anyone who isn't white and French. Oh and fat people. Seriously. They'll come to you on the street to tell you they think you're too fat.
ReplyDeleteMy friend who is 1/4 black, but has red hair, green eyes and freckles will never admit to this now that she has lived in France for the past nine years. In Canada she is proud of her heritage,but in France, the racism is so bad she will never admit to this or talk about it.
The undercurrent of racism is very strong and the hate crime laws tend to be trotted out when it involves attacks against Jews or involve nazis or nazism.
I think part of the problem that contributes to the polarization there is how people live, how authorities live... The cost of living is very high and only well-off people have houses in the urban areas. Everyone else is in apartments. People tend to flock together, so you get certain ethnic groups in one building to the exclusion of all others.
Same deal with the police, riot police, fire fighters. They are assigned housing in apartment buildings and just don't really mix with civilians. One apartment building is all police. Another is all firefighters. It's freaky.
Anyway, Galliano tirade was very very public and unprovoked. In North America, if you confront someone and shout racial slurs in their face and wish their deaths etc, I'm positive if police were called you'd be charged with something too. Stating racist beliefs versus confronting strangers in a public place and getting in their face are two different things. That is why this asshole was charged and convicted.
"We live in a country where eight year-olds are playing shit like Mortal Kombat and Grand Theft Auto, yet parents are concerned about whether or not freakin' MUPPETS are bumping uglies."
ReplyDeleteTHIS^^^
And blogger Brakewater- Marx was a humanist philosopher- the crux of what he believed in was that the powerful would shape society into its own image and self interest and leave the other classes-the working classes- disenfranchised and devalued and always struggling- do you deny this still happens today and is getting worse?! Marx simply believed that the great source of change was in the working middle-classes. There is a lot I dont agree with regarding Obama's decisions in for one, continuing a war long after its due to end, BUT his interest in preserving and increasing the power of the middle-classes is commendable. Please cease spouting that bullshit socialist trigger simply because he wants socialized medicine. Guess what? Canada, Europe, Cuba and more HAVE socialized medicine and they live longer than we do and have a hellava lot less deaths per year. So suck it!
(Ida, keep fighting the good fight darling- know that there is an army of smart, conscious thinkers that feel just as passionate about what your preaching as you do) and we MISS you on fb. xoox
Wow, brakewater, you are really good at completely misinterpreting everything I say. Makes trying to have a discussion with you absolutely pointless.
ReplyDeleteIf you want to give the conservatives the North and the liberals the South, that's fine with me, it just means slightly more people will have to relocate.
Oh, and I second what Jasmine said - we miss you on facebook, Ida, and I hope you come back when you're ready. ♥
ReplyDelete"Please cease spouting that bullshit socialist trigger simply because he wants socialized medicine. Guess what? Canada, Europe, Cuba and more HAVE socialized medicine and they live longer than we do and have a hellava lot less deaths per year. So suck it!"
ReplyDeleteI'm pretty sure I never mentioned Obamacare. Also, I would rather live in the USA than Canada, Europe or Cuba. Cuba? Really? You are bringing out Cuba? Are you Michael Moore?
Wow, keep bringing it. "Suck it" That's funny.
Stay mature. I like Ida, we just differ politically.
You are telling me to suck it, which shows me your true colors. You think conservatives are evil, racist, bigots, etc.
Wake up and look around. Most people don't agree with you.
Brakewater- if the 'most people' you count who dont agree with me are your kinda people, than Im good.
ReplyDeleteAnd way to show your ethnocentric beliefs by scoffing at an entire country-Cuba-
Just because something is different from the way we run things in the U.S. doesnt mean we cant learn something from them.
And yeah, I DO like Michael Moore, a hellava lot better than a handful of prominant Rep I could name- and Im not afraid to admit it.
"ethnocentric beliefs" I like that. Never been called that before.
ReplyDeletemy comments on Cuba is it is the last remnants of Communism.
I love Cuba, hope it is free some day. I hear the beaches are nice. My rich, GOP fat ass would love to vacation there some day and bring you all my disposable dollars.
Hey, don't bring the Muppets into this! I like them. Bert and Ernie can come live in my gayborhood ANYtime.
ReplyDeleteEven if they are the most socialist socialists shown on the socialistiest of all socialist TV networks--PBS. Wait. Public Broadcasting (of) SOCIALISM?!?!?!? They should get their dang funding taken away!
breakwater:
ReplyDeleteHere you go!
http://politicalhumor.about.com/od/stupidquotes/a/glenn-beck-quotes.htm
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Glenn_Beck
http://mediamatters.org/research/201007210005
http://www.newshounds.us/2010/10/25/the_glenn_beck_omnibus_of_recent_inanities.php (There are three parts to this one.)
http://stopbeck.com/
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/10/18/101018fa_fact_wilentz?currentPage=all
All this with one simple Google search--I'm sure you could find many more yourself if you are so inclined. Happy reading!
Awesome, blankprincess! But it won't make a difference to Brakewater - his mind is totally closed off to anything that doesn't fit his preconceived notions.
ReplyDelete@Brakewater -- "Can you please give a specific, attributable quote of Rush or Glenn spewing racism or hatred?"
ReplyDeleteLike I said before, Rush Limbaugh suggested that Oreo name a cookie after our President. How is that NOT racist?
This is from newsone.com:
In March of 2006, Beck characterized Mexico as a “country that has been overtaken by lawbreakers from the bottom to the top.” He criticized supporters attending immigration rights rallies, saying that “what [they’re] protesting for is to have lawbreakers come here.” When asked to clarify these remarks, Beck said he “pretty much stand[s] by” his previous statements that “Mexico is run by nothing but criminals” on his radio show the next day.
Just one month after he characterized Mexico as lawless and criminal – and received significant backlash for his negative generalization of a complex issue – Beck listed the only three reasons a Mexican would come to the United States on his CNN show: “One, they’re terrorists; two, they’re escaping the law; or three, they’re hungry. They can’t make a living in their own dirtbag country.”
Mmmm hmmm.
Oh, and this was really nice, too:
On the September 9, 2005 broadcast of his radio program, Glenn Beck discussed his “hatred” not only for 9/11 victims’ families, but also for victims of Hurricane Katrina. “It took me about a year to start hating the 9/11 victims’ families… I’m so sick of them because they’re always complaining… We did our best for them… But the second thought I had when I saw these people and they had to shut down the Astrodome and lock it down [because of rioting while supplies were being distributed], I thought: I didn’t think I could hate victims faster than the 9-11 victims.” He continues to say, “This is a 90,000-square-mile disaster site, New Orleans is 181 square miles… And that’s all we’re hearing about, are the people in New Orleans. Those are the only ones we’re seeing on television are the scumbags… It’s just a small percentage of those who were left in New Orleans, or who decided to stay in New Orleans, and they’re getting all the attention.”
There ya go. Verbatim.
You're free to keep any and all of your political beliefs, of course, but I *will* challenge anyone who claims that certain talk radio hosts aren't guilty of spewing bigotry on air. Their language is truly chilling.
"Even if they are the most socialist socialists shown on the socialistiest of all socialist TV networks--PBS."
ReplyDeleteOh, I LOLed. I did. I love the CRAP out of PBS. ;-) Also, "socialistiest" is my new favorite word.
Oh, and I loathe hot weather like Madge loathes hydrangeas, so I'd be *totally* down with all the Liberals moving northward like someone suggested earlier. Mooshki and Jasmine, I suggest we start some sort of Commie Compound in a Vermont forest!
Wow! Just wow! I don't have the answer but I'm getting pretty tired of plain out and out psychopaths dragging decent people into their schemes with lies and scare tactics that prey upon nothing more than innocent insecurity. Having said that, I'm OK with anyone spouting any kind of propaganda to advance a bogus agenda shot on sight.
ReplyDeleteI'm way tired with the hate, the lies, cheating, stealing, killing and mainly anything that disrupts normal people minding their own business going about their lives without harming anyone including themselves.
But, seriously, I'm OK with what France is doing. I think lots of you guys would enjoy reading Without Conscience and Snakes in Suits by Robert Hare. Always fun reading here on CDAN! Thanks Enty!!
Ida, sweetie, let me tell you something. I was working at the Astrodome and the convention center in the days after Katrina, trying to help people. It took me about 2 days to start hating a lot of them, too. Nothing we did was ever enough. They complained about everything. They were only interested in getting their FEMA debit cards so they could go shopping for things like LV bags, not getting apartments or food. All they talked about was how great NO was and how much Houston sucked. No one ever said thank you for anything. Their kids were brats.
ReplyDeleteSo yeah, while I think Glenn Beck is a boring blowhard, I actually agree with him on that.