What Do You Think?
BYU officials announced yesterday that Brandon Davies, a star basketball player on the 3rd best team in the country had been suspended indefinitely and may even be kicked out of school. Why? He had sex with his girlfriend. Apparently this violated the school's policy for students to live a virtuous and chaste life. This may also be why 80% of all students at BYU are married. They want to have sex. All students entering the school know they have to abide by the code, but they also can be kicked out of school for drinking coffee or tea. It seems hard to equate drinking coffee and tea with having sex but apparently at BYU they do. I understand the reasons the administrators of the school have the policy but it also seems unrealistic to expect teenagers living alone and on their own to not have sex. It is also hard to stay up all night studying for exams drinking milk. So, what do you think? Was suspending the player the right thing to do?
This University must be mormon, right? Sorry, too lazy to look it up.
ReplyDeleteIf those are their rules and he took their scholarship money, then he is required to abide by them whether we think they are stupid or not. I think they are not realistic in this day and age. But I also think the Mormon church is nothing more than a cult.
ReplyDeleteRQ, Yes. This is the place to go to school if you're mormon.
ReplyDeleteI have my own views on the mormon church that I will keep to myself, but although I think this policy is ridiculous, this is just what I would expect.
Good! FINALLY an athlete is being held to the rules that other students have to abide by...I have NO problem with this whatsoever!
ReplyDeleteRegardless of views on particular religions, the school makes it very clear what it stands for and how it expects its students to behave. As a private school they can pretty much make up whatever rules they want, so long as the policies are clearly articulated to students. He had to know that by doing what he was doing there was a risk of being caught and getting thrown out. Students know going in what they're in for.
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately, he took the scholarship, so he has to abide by the rules. Just like Pete Rose was supposed to follow the rules.
ReplyDeleteThat said, he'll get an offer from another shcool very quickly, since he has skills. I don't know the NCAA rules regarding switching schools mid-semester, but someone will take him.
Thanks Lauren. Gotta go with Ray on this one....you know the rules, at least everyone's treated the same. Tired of athletes getting away with rape and murder.
ReplyDeleteExactly. This is about breaking the rules. He knew what they were when he signed up and he's obliged to follow them.
ReplyDeleteWhat's refreshing is that BYU is actually sticking to their own moral code (no matter what we might think of it) and not sweeping it under the rug because the young man is a star athlete. When you consider what other universities have "overlooked" because someone is a marquee athlete, I say good for BYU.
ReplyDeleteDon't do the crime if you can't pay the time.
ReplyDeleteHe agreed to abide by the rules and he willingly broke them.
That's the way I see it.
Yes, LDS/Mormon.
ReplyDeleteYes, a cult.
Hope this provides an opportunity for this young person to escape it.
Oppressing natural behavior leads to nothing but trouble.
I could go on but it's not worth getting riled up--LDS is VERY powerful cult in certain western states. In UT & ID they control the gov't--I am not being alarmist, it is fact.
Ugh.
Agree with Nicole. The university is Mormon. The abstinence from sex, coffee and tea is all part of the Mormon faith and culture. No surprises. He CHOSE to go to a Mormon University, so he should expect to be held to the Mormon expectations. BTW Enty, Mormons tend to live on 64 oz. Diet Cokes....which is for some reason allowed. They aren't allowed hot beverages according to their Bible.
ReplyDeleteThe rules may suck but he decided to attend the school and took their scholarship money so he should have to abide by the rules like everyone else.
ReplyDeleteIt's dumb but it's the rules.
ReplyDeleteThe policy is also not exclusive to Morman schools.
A friend of mine was excommunicated at age 16. If his family even spoke to him, they would have been excommunicated as well. So he lived in a car for 3 years, slept under the freeway. All in the name of God.
Why do people live in Utah? Hopefully this will encourage him and others to leave. More hypocrisy there than we have time for, IMHO.
ReplyDeleteMost of the university students are in their early 20's and are not teenagers because they have to do their service after high school. Which is another reason why so many tend to be married.
ReplyDeleteHe made the decision to attend BYU, and he knew the rules, so I have zero sympathy.
ReplyDeleteI applaud BYU for not being hypocritical and looking the other way. Without Davies, they won't make a deep run in the tournament. It doesn't matter what we think of the rules, they are the school's rules and he agreed to abide by them.
ReplyDeleteActually, if LDS consume any caffeine it is generally a cold Pepsi product-why? They own a Pepsi bottling plant. Joseph Smith said no coffee or tea-some take that literally and some expand to all caffeine EXCEPT Pepsi b/c that gives them a profit.
ReplyDeleteYes, private university, must follow their rules. Just keep in mind "their rules" are part of a cult. Some kids grow up and never know they have a choice not to be in that cult. The result? UT has the highest rate of prescription drug use, psychotropic meds to be exact, in the nation. It's a CULT that has been "legitimized" into mainstream religion. They are no better than Scientology.
I don't care if its Mormon or not. If a school, a team, a group has a set code of rules and to belong means that you follow those rules then thats what you must do. If you do not believe in the rules then you need to go elsewhere. Taking the scholarship and not following the code shows you to be a person whose word is worth nothing.
ReplyDeleteIt doesn't matter if YOU think its unnatural, you either agreed to the code or you go elsewhere.
I don't always like driving 55 mph but thats the rule too. If a cop sees me going faster the rules say he can give me a ticket.
I like JW's response to this.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Sorka8. Love the way you put it.
ReplyDeleteAs for the NCAA rules, last I understood (one of my sons is an NCAA athlete) they can transfer one time without a substantial wait time, and athletes cannot transfer within the same conference. I don't think they can transfer and play during a season, because there is a date during pre-season where the athletes are set for the team and season.
ReplyDeleteAgree that the school has rules, whether reasonable are not, and said rules must be followed. The guy obviously has two hands; he should have used them.
ReplyDeleteI like that the university is sticking to their absurd rule. However, how did they find out he was having sex with his girlfriend?
ReplyDeleteBlondgossip, actually the LDS church holds major stock in Coca-cola. And the Bonneville radio network. I was raised in this church and stopped going when I went to college. Yes, I have a chip on my shoulder. That being said, Davies knew about the Honor Code when he signed with them. He has to abide by the rules. He just needs friends who can keep things on the down-low
ReplyDeleteI seem to agree with the majority. If it's a rule, then he should get punished like everyone else for violating it.
ReplyDeleteAnd BYU isn't the only school to have this policy. A friend of mine slept with one of the football players from Notre Dame (this was in the late 90's when they were still good) and he was suspended from the Orange Bowl because they got caught.
They got caught because he was so drunk he got up to pee and accidentally ended up in the wrong bed. Girl freaked out, he explained, the explanation got him in trouble.
While I agree that as private university they are entitled to own rules & students who go there must follow them, I still must emphasize that this is a university run by a cult. of 30k students, 98% are LDS--they have been born into and raised in a cult.
ReplyDeleteNothing about it is natural, nor does it provide an opportunity for people born & raised within this cult to make meaningful choices.
I really do think you have to live out here to understand. Trust me, it was a HUGE culture shock to move into LDS land & see what was really going on. Until I started living "behind Zion's curtain" I thought of LDS as a maligned religion, marginalized because it was "new". Now I understand that it is a cult and the fastest growing one in the world at that.
My hope is that incidents like this will shine a bright light on what happens to young people in this cult--it is NOT pretty. And if they excommunicate you for any reason (you are gay, not compliant, don't pay your 10%, break "the honorcode"), many find life as they've only known it over. Suicide rates within this cult are high too, especially among young men.
I hope this young person's athletic ability will carry him beyond UT, BYU & this cult into an adulthood where his choices are actually his alone & informed choices as well-not engineered by the LDS/Mormons.
Mormons are the white Taliban.
ReplyDeleteIf he is a star basketball player many other colleges will scoop him up.
@ CaligirlinVA I didn't know that about Coke but I stand by the Pepsi bottling company ownership--that is straight from my Mormon co-worker's mouths', they are quite proud of it. They are all lifelong Mormons & BYU alumni. I did know about their ownership of Bonneville Radio--they actually own/control most of the media in ID/UT. I am glad you are out of that situation-it is no place for a woman to be.
ReplyDeleteHe'd be in the same position had he gone to Oral Roberts or Bob Jones universities. Devout Mormons adhere to a specific set of rules (they can't have access to their temples unless they do.) He knew that when he agreed to attend BYU. I'm guessing his girlfriend told someone about their encounter. BTW, BYU students tend to go to school for 2 years, do their mission work, then return for the final 2 years. Now both men and women do missions, also.
ReplyDeleteI was wondering about the soda...had a vocal coach last year who was with my chorus for the weekend, and she was a mormon, and so she would not drink coffee or tea. I assumed she was not allowed caffeine, but then I saw that she was knocking back Diet Cokes all weekend. Made me wonder what the rule was.
ReplyDeleteMy Dad really pushed me to go to the "Y" for college but I refused. LDS young women go there for their Mrs. Degree and to catch a returned missionary (who are almost guaranteed a spot as long as they have the grades). I think it's hinky that Utah's rate of antidepressant use is the highest in the nation...as well as the most viewers of porn
ReplyDeleteI hate when people go to private religious schools, think they can do what they want, and then get all butthurt when the rules are enforced against them, no matter how freakin stupid they are.
ReplyDeleteone of my good friends went to a christian college with a similar honor code. she said the divorce rate was crazy because the kids get married to have sex and then realize, 'oh wait, we got married to bang.'
ReplyDeleteIf it is part of the school's policies and/or scholarship rules, then I agree they are completely within their rights to to suspend him.
ReplyDeleteBut I wonder if he himself is Mormon. I think it would interesting if the school does kick him out--i.e. would he have any legal standing to sue (particularly if he is not on a FULL scholarship)?
I applaud BYU for abiding by their Code of Ethics. No students were tricked into going to school here, everyone is aware that it is a Mormon college. Basketball players should live by the same Church standards as all other students.
ReplyDeleteHe agreed to abide by their honor code, so the school has every right to dismiss him for not following the honor code.
ReplyDeleteI'm surprised this is even the question. Isn't a better question, should they have such a strict honor code? IMO, yes. There are kids out there who would prefer to go to a school with a strict honor code.
I don't care about basketball, Mormons, or what goes on in Utah. Suspend him, give him an honorary basketball degree, excommunicate him from "The Church", could not care even the slightest bit less. Publish some hollywood gossip, there are no crazy days or nights in Mormon basketball land.
ReplyDelete@Skittle-just because you aren't Mormon doesn't mean you aren't held to the moral code policy-he signed it, scholarship or not...but guaranteed...he's on a full ride scholarship. And if it gets out that they let him get away with this, you can be sure they would start losing students fast.
ReplyDelete@blondegossip - Glad I am not the only one with the Cult view. My husband has two seminary degrees, and he will flat out tell you they are a cult started by Smith. So glad I live in Texas, could not live in UT because of their heavy presence. So, people get married to have sex and then get divorced? That worked out so well! Not. I don't believe that people should get married unless they have had sex together before hand. What if they are not compatiable? Misery if not Divorce. My husband was a virgin when he married his first wife and it was 17 years of HELL.
ReplyDeleteThey were talking about this on the radio this morning. Davis grew up in Provo, UT, but is not Mormon. He was offered scholarships to many schools but accepted BYU, I assume because of proximity to his home.
ReplyDeleteIsn't the code more like guidelines anyway? tm Pirates of the Caribbean
He is a mormon- born and raised. I am in the school that he broke the rules and he has to pay the consequences. He has stated that he is aware that he would face this punishment and I haven't heard him complaining. He accepted it and apologized to his team. I also heard that his girlfriend might be pregnant (wanted to put that in there so we could qualify this post as a "gossip worthy item". What upsets me the most is that they seem to correlate this incident with their loss at UNM. UNM beat them back in January in a game that Davies played. If the Lobos aren't going to be contenders, they may as well be spoilers!
ReplyDeleteWhether or not the rules are realistic, I agree that he should be required to abide by them. By going to the school and accepting their scholarship, he must follow their rules. I respect the school for sticking to their policies (whether or not I agree with them), rather than ignoring it due to the success of their basketball team and his abilities. Compare this to Baylor, a private Baptist University, who had a star player BREAK HIS GIRLFRIEND'S JAW only to have her and the police report simply go away. After all that, he was suspended for 5 games (3 being nonconference) and announcers go out of their way to not only ignore what he did, but make a point of what a great guy he is. Disgusting. I can totally appreciate a school standing by their values.
ReplyDeleteThis is an interesting take by a very famous former mormon blogger:
ReplyDeletehttp://dooce.com/2011/03/03/wherein-i-actually-approach-subject-sports
also, @bluebonnetmom RIGHT ON! Glad I'm not alone either. I live in ID, not UT, but the cult influence is strong nonetheless. My biggest issue is their stance/attack on homosexuality-that people should "pray the gay away" and the way they treat anyone that doesn't toe the line on homosexuality. It is dangerous. Anyway, we probably will not stay here much longer, too much conflict giving tax dollars to a cult. :(
@bluebonnetmom and @ blondegossip - It's very obvious that you two have no idea and no REAL knowledge of the LDS church and their beliefs. You're just completely caught up in throwing around the "cult" stuff. Don't know of any other "cults" that have 13 million members worldwide and their own universities.
ReplyDeleteThis is why I left the church.
ReplyDeleteWell, that and the coffee, tea, and obeying a man. Ugh.
When you're in, you are everybody's best friend. They are calling or knocking on your front door 24/7. Break some rules and they won't even say hi at Wal-Mart.
Adios LDS.
He was kicked off because his girlfriend got pregnant. BYU has turned a blind eye in the name of sports championships many times (see Jim McMahon as a prime example), but it is hard to ignore a pregnancy that has become known.
ReplyDeleteI agree LDS is a cult for what its worth. They just have better PR and get behind their members blindly for things like government positions, so they are more accepted than say Scientology. They also count any and everyone they can in that 13 million members, it is hard to get yourself uncounted.
They only count every one who has been baptized into it, and who hasn't had their name officially removed from church records.
ReplyDelete@Maja & blondgossip - thanks for the info on caffeine. I've been wondering what the deal was. My father had two kids by his first wife who then went on to marry and a Mormon (in NZ) and they were raised as such. When I first met them in my 20s I was stunned that there was no tea or coffee in their house, but one sister drank like a fish and the other knocks back Diet Coke and chocolate like nobody's business.
ReplyDeleteMeh. Hypocrisy abounds everywhere, I suppose. I suppose this is why it seems so ridiculous to me to take things that are written in a book so literally.
Well, it's refreshing to see that, for once, we're all on the same page about something. I can only echo the sentiments expressed above and credit the school with sticking to their guns (figuratively speaking) in this situation.
ReplyDeleteAnd CaliGirlinVA is right about both the antidepressant use and the online porn stats. Telling.
For the record, I would never throw the term "cult" around lightly...
ReplyDeleteConsider this article on when a cult becomes a religion:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703529004576160363526909654.html
The LDS church fits this to a T.
And if not considered a "cult" it is certainly a "religion"/"church" that oppresses women & homosexuals. It's funding of Prop 8 campaign in CA should've ended it's non-profit status, but again, their power should not be underestimated-power in numbers and money.
I don't agree with the Mormon church on a lot of things- but it was his choice to go to a Mormon school, and he knew what the code of conduct entailed. So yes, it was his fault.
ReplyDeleteI'm totally floored that a university with such a powerful sports presence stuck to its moral guns instead of siding with a star athlete -- though I am in FULL agreement with the posters who question the ethics of the Mormon Church in the first place.
ReplyDeleteThe kid had sex, obviously didn't take precautions, and now he's up a creek. End of story.
@Kristine: "Don't know of any other 'cults' that have 13 million members worldwide and their own universities."
I dunno about that. Ever heard of Liberty University? Jerry Falwell still leads *that* flock from the grave.
@Kristina - my ex grew up in the church and as an adult did his damndest to get his name removed from the records. The church ignored his letters and when he persisted they outright refused him.
ReplyDelete@ Kristina....My husband has three degrees in religion: 1 Undergrad and 2 Masters....I think that I do "have a clue" in that we have had many discussions about this issue. I do not throw that term around lightly. The only other main stream group I refer to as a cult is the Scientologists. The LDS Founder Smith was interesting to say the least. You are obviously a member of LDS. Good for you.
ReplyDeleteWell.. the only thing I can add to this conversation is..
ReplyDeleteBack in the 80's, my mormon friends threw the wildest parties in high school.
I understand why the school kicked him off but I just can't imagine picking that school. The rules are insane.
ReplyDeleteThe mormon church spent so much money to get Prop 8 passed and that disgusts me. I don't understand how you can have such hate in your heart but can act like you are such a loving worshiper. "The kids, think of the children" bullshit.
Whether I agree or disagree rules are rules. My son's math teacher called a few weeks ago apologizing to me because he had to give my son a detention. He had said something out loud, not realizing it was inappropriate. The teacher knew that he didn't understand what he had said, but it still was something he was required to assign a detention for.
ReplyDeleteBlondegossip, read your WSJ....it even refers to Mormonism as a movement and not a cult. According to the article, the criteria for cult includes a)behavior control, b)information control, c)thought control, d)emotional control. In my opinion, that criteria can be applied to any organized religion. The author differentiates dangerous cults as defined by financial control and extreme leadership....I feel most religions also have financial control. As far as, extreme leadership....there are extremists in all faiths. Not just Mormonism.
ReplyDeleteI agree with most of the comments on here about the scholarship - if he selected that school then he has to play by the rules.
ReplyDeleteI wanted to add that although I am not Mormon myself and don't necessarily agree with all of their views I think using the word 'cult' to describe someone's religion is a bit harsh. Like Catherine pointed out, many of the categories for a religion turned into a cult that are mentioned in that article could fit most religions. It would be ridiculous to say that the Catholic religion hasn't and still doesn't (in some places) have a major effect on behavior, information, thought, or emotional control. I'm not saying that's wrong or right but I think it's very easy to demonize certain religions and I think that's unfair.
I'm not trying to be Miss PC but most of us are just on here for some good friendly gossip and I don't think Mormon readers instead expect to find their religion being trashed. I'm probably the only person I know who feels that way about all the negativity towards Scientology. I definitely don't agree with ANY of their beliefs, but live and let live people! :)
I really can't add anything. Catherine's cult criteria just wants me to blurt out that it sounds like the Harper government.
ReplyDelete(Sorry, little inside Canadian joke there.)
This is ridiculous !!!
ReplyDeleteSo, just because these are the rules set up some of you are promoting that he unthinkingly, and unnatuarally (as sex is a NORMAL human need/want) abide by these rules?!|
WOW PEOPLE- unthinkingly following rules and regulations is how things like the holocaust happen
think about that
(and i dont even care if this sounds reaching, the human nature of this is connected)
I work in higher ed and was at a conference with lots of their administrative people. Not at all impressed with their views on anything related to higher ed, including crap like this.
ReplyDeleteWow, I guess this Webmaster has no problem with bigoted and hateful posts as long as they're directed at an unpopular minority religion.
ReplyDeleteI can't wait for the posts trashing Jews for eating shrimp or Catholics for using BC.
And yeah, the Mormons have a complete monopoly on the oppression of women and gays. The Catholics, Evangelicals and Muslims are just streaks ahead of them on those issues .
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDelete@Pencil - Couldn't have said it better myself!
ReplyDeleteIt's crazy that atrocities like the Holocaust are being brought up in defense of the angry and bigoted views about this religion while overlooking the fact that bigotry and hate towards people of a different religion/culture were the very foundation on which the Holocaust and persecution of the Jews (and other groups) was built.
As to the person who brought up the fact that this religion is oppressing natural things, okay that might be true, but speech is natural and no one judges Monks for their vow of silence and no once dares to judge the Pope and priests for their vow of celibacy (even though the history of that vow is somewhat questionable and has no basis in the Bible). The fact is, those religions are 'popular' and therefore it's usually considered unacceptable to say anything derogatory about them, especially Catholicism.
I personally don't have a problem with ex-Mormons sharing their views about their former religion b/c they lived it and they know what they're talking about. But that's not what is being posted here. Instead it's third party information and third pary information or experiences are always biased and lead to a page like this that is full of thinly veiled prejudice and even a bit of hatred. How is that okay, especially when this is supposed to be a fun gossip site? I know I didn't plan on logging on today and seeing so many rude remarks about the Mormons. And like I said before, I am not Mormon. I just don't like prejudice of any kind and can't sit by and say nothing when I see or hear it.
Oh, Jeebus. I kinda think it's generally an extremely bad idea to bring up The Holocaust unless you're specifically talking shit about the Third Reich and whatnot. The plight of a spoiled athlete doesn't exactly compare to...okay. I'll just stop. We all know. I don't even need to say it. Let's not even go there.
ReplyDeleteKrystal, you made some really good points, and I think that most CDANers aren't big fans of prejudice, either. But as long as certain sects continue to preach messages of homophobia and misogyny, you'd better believe that they're opening themselves up to well-deserved criticism.
If these churches weren't smugly tax-exempt -- and if they weren't so adept at infiltrating political motives and discourse -- I'd roll my eyes and carry on. As is, though, faith has changed the terrain of politics in this country, and non-believers have every right in the world to criticize organized religions -- Scientology, Mormonism, Baptism, Catholicism, etc. As long as they affect voters at the polls, they're ALL scary to me.
*siiiiiiiigh* All I know is this: I dream of the day when a science-loving Atheist can comfortably sit in the Oval Office.
I feel bad for the kid and his girlfriend. They must hate themselves right now, given their religious upbringing. I hope they have someone in their lives to help them get through this.
ReplyDelete@bluebonnetmom, blondegossip and amot - I completely agree with you.
ReplyDeleteA lot of people seem to argue that they are happy about the fact that the school takes a stand and isnt afraid to go after athletes. I read an interesting story about how BYU works and the former student who wrote it said that most students in fact violate the honor code, and that there are no consequences even when the authorities know. They just wanted to set an example and the writer talks a lot about how hypocritical that is
http://deadspin.com/#!5775738/a-byu-grad-on-brandon-davies-sex-and-the-universitys-double-standard
So if a private religious university had a rule as I think Falwell's or some college in Virginia where my cousins attended, that said no interracial dating was permitted, should an athelete or student be kicked out of school since these schools alledgedly can make up their own rules?
ReplyDeleteI don't think everyone would be saying "it might be a stupid rule, but hey, it's the rules"
Bubbles, if you matriculate to Liberty University or Brigham Young -- or any other school with a VERY stringent "moral" code -- you should be expected to follow the same rules as everybody else.
ReplyDeleteLiberty sucks, and it wouldn't shock me at all if they DO have rules against interracial dating, but if you're a progressively-minded young person you're PROBABLY not going to want to go there, anyway. Go to Oberlin. Go to Reed. Go where *I* went.
Cry me a river. A kid with a free ride broke the rules. The End.
I have to agree with amoteafloat. He wasn't forced to go to this school, he signed the honor code before hand, and broke it. Another school will take him in.
ReplyDeleteAlso, bringing up the Holocaust in regards to a situation where a young man was asked to sign a no-sex agreement is just so wrong.
I'm amazed they stuck to their guns regarding an athlete. Rules is rules, as dumb as they may be.
ReplyDeleteNo coffee or tea?? Forget the sex part, I couldn't have survived college without caffeine.