NOT Sandy Dennis
NOT Shirley Booth
I don't think anyone has mentioned Timmy on any blog. I'm not absolutely, positively, 100% sure because there are so many comments on so many different blogs and sites but to the best of my knowledge no one has mentioned Timmy.
so it's not baker!
ReplyDeleteAlright - Shirley Booth is OVER!
ReplyDeleteThank you for reducing my flowchart!
Wow a flowchart acetomato777? That's more than I'm prepared to do!
ReplyDeleteWho's left?
Kay Kendall, Josephine Hull and Alice Brady I guess.
I love that you have a flowchart!
ReplyDeleteI betcha it's Brady or Kendall.
I find it almost impossible to find a pic of Cavan Kendall and haven't seen one at all of Kim Kendall. In one place it said Cavan was her son but it said in many other places he was her brother.
"Her" son meaning Kay's son - sorry.
ReplyDeleteThanks ent...
ReplyDeleteI slightly know a man who does a lot of researching in the UK census...I'm dying to ask him to look up Kay Kendall for me and see if she appears...but I'm too shy to ask this man!
ReplyDeleteYAY!!! Someone we can eliminate.
ReplyDeleteOh well... I guess we now know that Timmy is pretty obscure... what actor HASN'T been mentioned anywhere? If Shimmy is Kay Kendall, my vote for Timmy is the guy from the Horseshoe review photo.
ReplyDeleteI thought ENT said someone had correctly guessed Timmy/Shimmy. He must have meant someone had correctly guessed Timmy the actress, "Shimmy."
ReplyDeletegrace, i am glad you wrote that, i just got so confused when i read that. i too remembered that post saying someone had gotten it correctly on another site and then I read this. thanks for clarifying. i think you are correct.
ReplyDeleteI think we have to get "Shimmy" before we can figure out who Timmy is. Timmy can be any number of obscure actors. Shimmy has some specific attibutes and awards.
ReplyDeletec'mon Brenda -- was it BlindGuy that taped his boobs together in the name of scientific research? Take one for the team. ;)
ReplyDeleteYes and a big THANK YOU, ENT<3
Thanks for the update! I can cross Shirley off my list.
ReplyDeleteSo Timmy must be really obscure. Definitely a chorus type guy I'm thinking.
thanks, JR. I wished i had photogrpahed that to get to Ent. Lawyer to post as a tribute to my dedication to this cause. If Brenda will give me this man's email, I will ask him to do it. There are desperate across the pond who need to know! :)
ReplyDeleteblindguy, a fitting tribute to our plight indeed, that pic would be!:)
ReplyDeleteHere is something on KK that has a few things in it about being suspended from her contract for turning down parts, the differences between how she looked in the 40's, and comments she made about looking like a female impersonator. There is some interesting stuff in her about her appearance.
ReplyDeletehttp://eprints.gla.ac.uk/3370/01/geraghtykendallfinal.pdf
Thanks Harpo for pointing out the board to me:)
ReplyDeleteThis is the 3rd bd I've put it on so I am sorry if someone has seen it but I haven't seen a response so I am assuming since I was on wrong brd.....
This is not my find but Barbara K. E. on another board posted a very suspect name for Timmy. Walter Merrill who was 5'10". He made tons of movies most of them uncredited roles and he had a gap between 1951 and 1957. He died in 1985. Can't find a picture of him either. Very limited info that I could find. If this has already posted or been researched debunked then please forgive me. I tried to search it but couldn't make it work. I have a mac and don't think the commands are the same. If it hasn't please look him up on IMDB and see what you think. I am giddy at the moment because I had given up but thank you Barbara for keepin my dream alive!!
what a great think in KK. The very things she says are the SAME things we all have noticed about her. height, breasts, feet etc. Guess she saw it too. :)
ReplyDeleteI KNOW!! Did you read all the way to the bottom there is a comment where she had even compared herself to danny kaye before. Weird.
ReplyDeleteWalter Merrill...hmmmm sounds very suspicous/
ReplyDeletehttp://www.imdb.com/name/nm0581341/
Check out this link. It's Walter G instead of initial A BUT it's in Santa Cruz and I believe it said he died in LA CA in 1985. This guy was on the bd of directors at the same time Walter Merrill comes back from 6-7 yr's of nothing in Hollywood.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.santacruzpl.org/history/gov/bds3.shtml
WHOOOPS... I accidentally posted this on an old thread, so here it is again...
ReplyDeleteHere is something about Walter Merrill...
The IMDB for him is interesting... tons of bid (uncredited) parts with a break between 1950-1957 and the bio fits (from PA and died in 1985). If you look at the bottom of the page for Publicity, there are two articles listed in 'Motion Picture World'. The first, titled "Walter Merrill Signed by Warner" is dated 8/7/1926. Interestingly, at that time (and until 1929), Warner Bros was located on Sunset Blvd. The second article is titled "Merrill Goes West" (dated 6/12/1926). Although it is probably conisidence that two of the photos on the original BI are of SUNSET BLVD and Disney's Horseshoe Review (a WESTERN), I think it is interesting.
Here's my latest update of the A-list closeted actors list...I have added three new ones:
ReplyDeleteSir John Gielgud
Hurd Hatfield
David Manners
David Manners was married BRIEFLY in a sham marriage, but it was over by 1931 ... so he didn't marry again after that. Maybe that keeps him in the running?
Here's the complete list:
Dirk Bogarde
Montgomery Clift
James Dean
Sir John Gielgud
Farley Granger
Hurd Hatfield
Rock Hudson
David Manners
Roddy McDowall
Sal Mineo
George Nader
Cesar Romero
Clifton Webb
Look at the career break in 1950 to 1957. When he comes back there are only 5 roles, look like small ones and mostly uncredited parts. Is this TImmy? We need a picture. Or a movie to rent. I doubt any would be available to even rent anywhere to look at.
ReplyDeleteCool, Ent IS giving us a new hint every day--just what we asked for! Thanks!
ReplyDeleteOkay, now back to our discussion. In the previous thread, we were talking about Kay Kendall's faces--male vs. female, 1940s vs. 1950s.
(CM, if you're here--or when you get here--could you repost that man/woman side-by-side comparison photo again in this thread? Even though I'm not convinced by it myself, it was remarkable and worth reposting.)
As far as I can tell, the only difference between Kay's 1940s and 1950s faces is her nose surgery. So here is an interesting paragraph from her bio about that surgery, which seems to have happened in 1949. (I'm getting the book tomorrow, this is from the few pages that Amazon let me see.)
"Kay never admitted to anyone that she’d hated her face enough to have a knife taken to it—she invented a horrific car crash to cover up. “She said she’d gone through the windscreen and had smashed up her face from the bridge of her nose to the chin,” said her longtime friend Dirk Bogarde. “What rubbish!” says Kim Kendall. “We certainly would have known about any car crash.” … Sadly, Kay’s nose job did not improve her self-image."
Here are a few items of interest from the pages I read:
-- Kay was very close to Dirk Bogarde, who is on our short list of the A-listers.
-- She had a long "series of affairs with minor royalty, costars, directors, producers, and married men." (Who would either all have to be gay or in on the joke.)
-- Kay had low self-esteem about her looks--changed her nose, jokes about looking like Danny Kaye (who had a famously ugly mug) and a transvestite.
-- Kay seems to have been a very outgoing, social person who was surrounded by friends and family all her life.
To me, this is interesting but on balance I don't see it supporting the likelihood of an identity switch. However, feel free to interpret it differently!
Calla, were Hurd Hatfield and David Manners a-listers? I've never heard of either one of them.
ReplyDeleteRegarding Hurd Hatfield & David Manners - I looked them up on imdb and they seemed to be in a lot of leading roles during the time frame we are looking at.
ReplyDeleteI came across their names on these lists:
Katharine Hepburn's Leading men
Sophia Loren's Leading Men
Thanks for the hint! Just wanted you to know EL, I also had a dream about Timmy/Shimmy last night.
ReplyDeletewooo! A late-night hint. Good thing I checked before going to bed. And I'm going out of town tomorrow so I reckon this will all be solved before I get back on Tuesday.
ReplyDeleteAnd it better not be Kendall. Spent some time researching her family today... Carven was her step-brother, 15 years younger. Her sister is still alive and living in Florida as far as I can tell.
KK certainly didn't invent a family bio as they are all over the place and confirmed numerous ways.
Good site for very high resolution headshots:
http://www.doctormacro.info
If we are eyeballing the cowboy at the golden horseshoe and we have Josephine Hull, Kay Kendall and Alice Brady the only actress that would line up in resemblance would be KK. I don't see Alice Brady in this guy. But, we were comparing him to KK to begin with. By the way, were those the 3 actresses we are down to at this point? I don't want to bring up old ones.
ReplyDeleteCalla, thanks for the scoop. Maybe I've seen them and just don't know their names.
ReplyDeleteThe Merrill thing is interesting, but he seems to have arrived in Hollywood in 1926, and according to the info we have, that's too early for Timmy:
ReplyDelete-- When Timmy arrived in Hollywood, the studio system was “still going strong.” The widely accepted dates for the heyday of the studio system are 1927-1948. Ent's wording tells us that Timmy arrived after the system was well-established, not just as it was about to start.
-- “Timmy worked often, but nothing more than a few lines here or there and spent a great deal of time in the "chorus" sections of musicals which were still fairly popular.” Okay, in 1926 movies were still SILENT, so no musicals yet. The heyday of musicals (when they topped the box office) was the RKO years of Fred and Ginger, 1933-1939. This means that Timmy would have been waiting around for at least 13 years before he could start getting bit parts in musicals after their peak of popularity.
So unless Ent's time clues are really sloppy (and I think they are very carefully worded, myself), this guy doesn't work.
If Timmy was obscure enough to change his gender in order to find work, I honestly don't think we're going to find much evidence of him individually, like an imdb profile. If I were on his tail (which I'm not, so it's just a suggestion), I'd look at cast photos for his stage career, rather than combing through filmographies. Most (possibly even all) of his film work is likely to be uncredited, anyway.
Walter Merrill, a.k.a Wally Merrill, a.k.a Anthony Merrill is an interesting Timmy guess. Lots of uncredited roles. I can't find a pic of him but some of the movies he was in are available on Amazon which means they might be for rent somewhere.
ReplyDeleteInteresting note he was in Adam's Rib (starring Judy Holliday and Spencer Tracy).
Gillian, I'm with you on KK--but we seem to be in the minority now, and I sure don't have any better candidates to suggest.
ReplyDeleteHave a great trip!
Adam's Rib? Gee, now wasn't Judy Holiday in that? *grin* I guess that rules out Merrill/Holiday!
ReplyDeleteRemember the Amazon book excerpt: she used to go skinnydipping with her cousins... and the Bazaar boutique incident... surely they can't *all* be in on it.
ReplyDeleteIf Merrill is our Timmy (not saying that he is), I think Josephine Hull is the only Shimmy that works. There is some overlap in the 40's, but she won her Oscar the year Merrill disappeared (1950). He then reappears the year she dies (1957).
ReplyDeleteThen again, it doesn't even appear that he was in an musicals at all, so Harpo could be right on that one.
I have been looking at KK's neck on a Les Girls trailer. It doesn't look like a man's neck. Someone posted a side view of it at some point but I myself never saw an adams apple in it. I am off to bed almost midnight.
ReplyDeleteLooking at Merrill's info at IMDB, he also had a 5 year break 1931 to 1936.
ReplyDeleteHarpo068... when you get the book, could you look up Terry Kendall Jr, KK's older brother? I haven't come across any other ref to him.
ReplyDeleteAlso, here's a link to a lovely photo of KK, parents, and sister walking in the street in the 50s if you haven't already seen it:
http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=914&page=5
Okay, that's definately it for tonight.
missanonymous: Josephine Hull worked steadily on Broadway between 1923 and 1954, with big hits in 1936, 1941, 1944, and 1954. In other words, she was a big Broadway star. Her Hollywood career took place right in the middle of her stage fame. Her 1950 Oscar was for reprising her stage role in Harvey, and lotsa people would have noticed if Timmy had pulled a switcheroo.
ReplyDelete(So Merrill would've needed a lot of breaks to make it to all her Broadway performances.)
Sorry to be such a downer about all the guesses; believe me, I'd be the first to rejoice if we could just find someone who fit the clues-- aargh! I think I'll just go to bed anyway, it's midnight already.
oooooo late night posting, you know we are all foaming at the mouth to be checking this blog at this hour =)
ReplyDeletethanks enty!!
Sure thing, Gillian, I'll check him out. And thanks for the moral support. By the time you get back, someone else will probably be the favorite again. I just hope it's not friggin' Alice Brady--the only suspect with an even better documented life than Kay Kendall!
ReplyDeleteBoy, I'm a bitch tonight. Sorry! (I'm blaming it all on Ent.)
I'm not surprised Timmy was never mentioned yet. My guess is Timmy is virtually obscure but with a body of work. It is Shimmy who became famous. If I could guess who Timmy is, I'll certainly need more clues. As for Shimmy and the others, I still stand by all my original guesses.
ReplyDeleteOf course I have also considered that this is all just a practical joke. I'll be sport and say it was fun. I certainly enjoyed the guessings and deductions.
How about this guy?
ReplyDeletehttp://www.imdb.com/name/nm0086478/
it's the beauty addict, baby.
ReplyDeleteO my God - that guy has got to be one of the most butch drag queens I have ever seen. His Shirley Temple is a scream.
ReplyDeletehttp://phantomdragon.com/THELEGEND/blake.htm
I can't really see how Hull could be Merrill, since she's listed as being only 5'2 and Merrill is 5'10. Kendall however is listed as 5'9... I've been hooked on "Timmy" since day one, and only Kay Kendall really works for me, so I'm admittedly somewhat biased!
ReplyDeleteI've been cross-referenicng award winners with never-married then-A-list actors, then eliminating those that weren't mentioned on this board and others early on, are still alive, or that just don't fit the time frame. These criteria seem like they are pretty reliable for purposes of guessing. I'm not focusing on the other parts of the clue, because I think there are a lot of red herrings and details added for the sake of "narrative." (I'm beginning to think there is no JJ, much less a wife of JJ). I am left with:
ReplyDeleteAnne Revere
Jo Van Fleet
Mercedes McCambridge
Gloria Grahame
Kay Kendall if you count British films (I still don't think it's her, but I know many here disagree.)
Of these, neither Revere nor McCambridge have any close family left, and thus pose little risk to Ent should he name their names. Revere's husband is dead, and they didn't have kids. McCambridge's ex-husbands are dead, and her son killed himself and his children in the 1980s. Kendall didn't have kids, but from what many of the ace researchers on this board have determined, she still has a sister left and is from a pretty tight, British family.
I can't say I've looked at every unmarried actor who arguably could be considered A-list at the time, so this list may not be complete.
I still think it's McCambridge (not to sound like a broken record!). She was an early guess on many boards because, frankly, she's manly (and had a really deep voice). She was short, though, and slender, so any male persona would have to be "slight." She didn't start making movies until she was 33. Her pre-film theater/radio background seems to be documented for only about 3 years prior to her first film. (She did write an autobiography, and apparently really did attend a college in Illinois that I believe is now part of Loyola, but as I don't think Ent researched all that before writing the clue, I don't think those are grounds for ruling her out.) She lied about her age (ok, that was not unusual back then, but still). Her film career really suffered after 1959, and she went MIA for awhile in the 80s/90s. I don't think she was actually a man, but I do think that she is the correct answer!
why would ent promise to reveal Timmy if s/he still had living close relatives? I think the fact that KK's sister is still alive and well in FL would rule her out. Ent seems to have some discretion in this regard.
ReplyDeleteSleuth, how do you explain that McCambridge worked years after Timmy died? That makes no sense. In addition to her not fitting that clue, she also doesn't fit because she worked several years after winning her award, and EL already said if the actress we're considering did that, we have to rule her out. So two major strikes against her.
ReplyDeleteAnne Revere is intriguing. I didn't know much about her until Timmy. The death of her career is not a mystery, though - she refused to testify at the HUAC and was blacklisted. She was also married to Samuel Rosen. If she disappeared after 1957 and never resurfaced, that would make everything suspect - but she actually made another movie in like 1971. Argh.
ReplyDeleteKay Kendall: whomever posted the photo of her with her family - thank you. I want KK to be the answer because she nearly fits and it would be quite the scoop - but pictures with the family kind of kill the "made up bio" thing.
Unless . . . her whole family knew.
Two things -
ReplyDelete1: what does "slight" build mean?
2: It can't be McCambridge. Remember the most important clue - Three sites have named Shimmy correctly. I have not seen even ONE to name McCambridge.
Ace, I'm thinking that whomever this is, their family would have to know. How could Timmy not tell them? And can you imagine how awful it must have been to be a huge success as the opposite gender and just a bit player as yourself? What a painful existence Timmy had. It doesn't seem fair.
ReplyDeleteJanele, according to dictionary.com, it means a number of things, but with regard to the body, it means:
ReplyDeleteslender or slim; not heavily built.
This is why people shouldn't discount KK because she was tall.
Hey everyone,
ReplyDeleteFormer lurkers here - everyone was doing so much incredible research that we didn't have anything of value to add.
But we've done a little digging that we haven't seen yet in the comments and wanted to share.
Like others, our spreadsheet narrowed the possibilities down to:
Alice Brady
Marie Dressler
Josephine Hull
Kay Kendall
Reasons for/against all of them have been presented very well on this board so far. Based on what we could find and instinct, we decided to concentrate on looking for more information on Alice Brady.
In addition to the IMDB and other free information we could pull up on the web, we got a subscription to the LA Times and rented two of Brady's movies: "In Old Chicago" and "My Man Godfrey." Godfrey's a favorite of ours - but we'd never seen IOC before.
What we found:
LATimes -
July 3, 1938
"They Didn't Laugh"
By Lupton Wilkinson
This is an interview with AB. Completed after AB finish "Good-bye Broadway" which was apparently a tough shoot.
Quotes of interest - Brady says, "If I'm still a lady at all, after what I've been through this Spring, it'll be a victory for the Bradys." (Ummm...maybe Alice wasn't a lady at all?) The author says that "Good-bye Broadway" nearly had to be renamed "Good-bye Alice" because of all the trouble with the shoot. Alice "contract[ed] a thorough-going case of the flu." And since she "was in almost every scene" production had to stop. (Flu as a cover for the hives?) Alice also got pink-eye possibly caused by the "ghastly yellow make-up" she had to wear on the shoot. (Another cover up for hives?)
Then the article goes on to recount how AB used a false name when starting out in theatre. (A way to cover the shady Shimmy/Timmy past?) Talking about how she broke the news to Dad about her assumed name, "All my dealings, I told him, 'have been under an assumed name. If you'll okay what I've done and promise to give me a chance in New York after I make good here, I'll stay anonymous. Otherwise I'll tell them who I am, and they'll billboard all Boston with me.' Poor Father. He decided he'd better keep the family shame a secret." (Whoa! Admission that Timmy was acting as a female and enlisting William Brady in the ruse/coverup?)
Article ends with the reporter describing what Alice is wearing, "summer green silk dressing-gown - three inch ermine cuffs, turned back - with Parma violets at the shoulder." (Sounds like something a drag queen might wear?) Also, Alice is a lipstick fiend and says she'll "never take a step outside without at least three sticks." (Maybe she just loves lipstick, but if it's a man playing a woman, then always having lipstick on would help keep the illusion going.)
Final note of interest - reporting says that for talkies Alice "invented an entirely new personality, with a high twittery voice instead of her own rich one." (!!! Timmy has a "rich" male voice, Shimmy/Alice has an invented new voice?)
January 1939
Short piece on Alice being sued for 50,000k by her agents. (Not a trivial sum in the late 30s - a reason for Alice to want to "disappear"?)
June 18, 1939
"Stars do Come Back"
By Hedda Hopper
Piece on stars who bounce back, Alice is one. Reporter writes that AB was frustrated by being typecast into dithery old matron roles but "broke free" w/ "In Old Chicago" and "Young Mr. Lincoln." (Data point for frustration AB was feeling as Shimmy and why she opted to leave the AB persona?)
June 22, 1939
By Hedda Hopper
Hedda interviews Alice and writes, "I haven't seen her look so well in years. I asked about that report a year ago that she'd never work again." (Two points here - first, this is FOUR months before Alice died of a "virulent cancer", a cancer that other reports claim she'd been battling for a year. Perhaps Hedda is just helping the publicity machine and trying to cover that Alice is sick, but it could also be that Alice did look fine because she didn't die of cancer 4 months later, just the person of Alice did. Also, the report about never working again - does it hearken back to the Good-bye Broadway stuff? Could it be the skin problems making Alice impossible to work with?)
Also - read the only two articles we could find on the 1938 Oscars (Brady won her award in 38 for 1937's IOC) and there was no mention of Brady actually at the awards. Also no mention of the mysterious fellow who apparently took the award and was never seen again. Would love to find a press account of the actual night that references the mystery man.
That's about all we could find of interest in the LATimes. They ran her obituary - but no new information we haven't seen on places like IMDB.
Movies -
"In Old Chicago"
First of all - s'up with the acting in this film? Everyone seems pretty wooden, even the wonderful Don Ameche. Also, we kept having "Howard Bound" flashbacks when Ameche was on the screen, "Ooooh, Peter. I missed you..."
On to Alice - also wooden. Hard to believe this was an academy award winning performance. Depending on the angle, could be a man, could be a woman. Even if someone said, "Shimmy is Alice", we'd still have a hard time saying, "OH, yes, of course!" She is absolutely mannish, has pretty big hands, and the neck is often covered. Also, the voice is, indeed, rich and deep. But a man, man? Couldn't say for sure - we'd believe it if it's her, but can't report to you guys that it's undeniable when watching the movie. 'Course that fits with EL's blind - Shimmy isn't super obvious when watching the award winning film. The one big concern - we could not see a scar. And we were really looking! We watched on our big HDTV and ran many of AB's scenes in frame by frame slow-mo and just could not find a definite scar. We focused on the face, neck, and hands.
"My Man Godfrey"
What a wonderful movie - enjoyed it all over again. Watching of AB as Shimmy - well, really the role of Mrs. Bullock honestly could have been played by a drag queen. The character is quite broad, the voice exaggerated and odd, the laugh a clear inspiration for Jack Lemmon's female character laugh in "Some Like it Hot," the hand motions dependent on loose wrist gestures. Also, the actress wears some open backed dresses and the shoulders are quite broad for a woman of her height. Is the person playing Mrs. Bullock in Godfrey a man? Maybe so - but again, nothing definitive. Also, did the slow-mo and freeze frame on AB in this film and, again, failed to find a scar.
Bottom Line - The LATimes had some great data poins for AB, and given how often people fake bios (and how hard falsehoods could be to uncover years ago), I don't think we can entirely rule her out. On the other hand, no scar. So no definitive - gotta be Alice.
The search goes on!
Janele:
ReplyDeleteShe was named early on both on this site (not by me) and ONTD. I confirmed that the other day. I'm pretty sure I remember seeing her name on at least one other site. I'll double check.
I think Walter Merrill is still a good Timmy candidate.
ReplyDeleteIf his parts in the musicals were all bit parts, then they might not be credited on his IMDB page. The site IS infallible: information could be wrong/missing. Especially for early Hollywood.
He also apparently had several aliases just as Mr Merrill, so who's to say that the information on him in complete. PLUS, if he's making up personas, he might have given all kinds of names when auditioning!
I think we need to look at his break in the 30s as his musical-time and his break in the 50s to be when he was Shimmy.
Do we have any Shimmys who fit the 1951-1957 timeline?
-just an idea
Twisted - thank you so much. I was reading dictionary.com, but I couldn't figure out why they'd discount KK just because of her height. I guess it's a matter of opinion or interpretation of the meaning, but KK WAS very slim, just tall and slim. The definition doesn't say short. That's why I thought I was missing something. So that pdf file that one of the other people posted on here gives an in-depth amazing description of KK's build and body structure.
ReplyDeletei meant it ISN"T infallible.
ReplyDeletei can't type today., sorry.
Janelle, I think some people just confuse 'slight' with 'petite'.
ReplyDeleteEd - WOWZERS! That's some great stuff you have there! In my mind I have it narrowed down to two people -
Kay Kendall
Alice Brady
I keep bouncing around between the two of them. Your contributions have just made me more confuzzled! Glad you finally came out of lurkdom.
ed:
ReplyDeleteThat's really impressive research! Even though AB is not my choice (although I did look into her early on), I enjoyed reading what you found. It definitely makes me want to re-watch Godfrey just to appreciate her more!
Sleuth - you can find it on youtube! Someone posted it and while it's in 9 parts, it's a really fun movie.
ReplyDeleteHer whole family is a whole lot of people to keep a secret for a long time, and it goes beyond Ent's assurance that only ten people knew. Here, her large family would have to be in on it. The long list of men alluded to by harpo068 would have to be in on it. The costume designer for "The Constant Husband," who according to the link posted by jusshopn "was someone who knew Kendall in her childhood and had taught her dancing" would have to be on it. Of course the two female roommates assigned by the studio would have to be in on it (and has anyone ascertained if Kay Kendall ever did share a home with two other young women in Hollywood?)
ReplyDeleteMaybe ten people could keep a secret like this (although I doubt it), but for Timmy to be Kay Kendall, half of England would have to be in on it.
Does anyone know if Alice Brady has any living relatives? Someone on a message board said that she had a son, but I can't verify that anywhere else.
Sugaree, you can verify it on imdb. Brady had a son named Donald.
ReplyDeleteI think it's more likely that family members knew and kept it quiet (as in the case with KK) than the actress outliving Timmy (as in the case with Mercedes McCambridge).
At this point, there are only four possible people, and if you look at the clues about the body and consider when they won their award within the fifty year timeframe, you whittle it down further.
If Kay Kendall was joking about looking like a transvestite, then it probably isn't her. If she actually was a man she probably wouldn't want to draw attention to the way she looks like a man.
ReplyDeleteAna,
ReplyDeleteOR she was trying to redirect people who may have been thinking it already. Just like people who are overweight joke about their weight issues because of their own insecurities.
Walter Merrill's IMDB page does list a few musicals in which he had bit parts. Not a lot, though - and he directed a few movies, which doesn't seem like it would work with the clues.
ReplyDeleteJanele - yeah, that's definitely a possibility.
ReplyDeleteTwisted s: Thanks for the youtube info!
ReplyDeleteI've confirmed that McCambridge was an early guess on yet another site, data lounge.
I don't think the fact that she died post-1985 disqualifies her. I think that assumption is a red herring (and Ent even said Shimmy's date of death wasn't important). This is especially true if Shimmy really was a woman who either resembled a bit actor who died in the 1980s or who did some early work in drag. In either scenario, the fact that Shimmy died post-1985 wouldn't matter.
This may be a dumb question, but were all of KK's films made in Europe? Did she film anything in the US?
Mercedes McCambridge acted into the 70's and sued to get credit as the voice in the Exorcist. Wouldn't this disqualify her?
ReplyDeletepariss:
ReplyDeleteNot if we stop trying to find someone who exactly fits all of the clues and instead focus on some very basic premises (award winner, dead and with no close family who could give Ent grief if their wife/mom/sister is revealed to me a man, guessed early on on several sites, in film with never married then A-lister). Otherwise, no one is an exact fit.
I'm not overly familiar with Ent's blind items, but someone noted on another site that he sometimes alters time lines/throws in some red herrings to keep blind items from being too easy. That may well be the case here.
I really don't think that Shimmy can outlive Timmy. While the date of death for Shimmy(if there is one)isn't relevant to figuring out who the BI is, EL certainly would have made part of the clue if the Timmy reverts to Shimmy in old age.
ReplyDeleteVisman, I agree. It's impossible for his female counterpart to be working years after Timmy has died.
ReplyDeleteSleuth, KK's biggest movies were filmed here - otherwise she wouldn't have won an Academy Award, should would have won BAFTA.
Siggghh.....I really need to stop multi-tasking long enough to proof things before clicking on Publish your comment!
ReplyDeleteVisman:
ReplyDeleteNot necessarily. Ent doesn't know for a fact that Timmy was Shimmy. at best, the information is third hand. Ent was given 2 names (Timmy and Shimmy) and noticed what appears to be a similar scar on each one. JJ's supposed source of information knew Shimmy back in the day, but didn't necessarily keep up with Shimmy later on (and thus would have no way of knowing anything about a reversion).
Sleuth- I understand, but enty said that shimmy stopped working withing a few years of her award. She won an academy award in 1949.
ReplyDeleteThis is her filmagraphy:
All the King's Men (1949)
Inside Straight (1951)
The Scarf (1951)
Lightning Strikes Twice (1951)
Screen Snapshots: Hollywood Awards (1951) (short subject)
Johnny Guitar (1954)
Giant (1956)
A Farewell to Arms (1957)
Touch of Evil (1958)
Suddenly, Last Summer (1959)
Cimarron (1960)
Angel Baby (1961)
Run Home Slow (1965)
The Counterfeit Killer (1968)
99 Women (1969)
Justine (1969)
The Last Generation (1971)
The Other Side of the Wind (1972) (unreleased)
Sixteen (1973)
The Exorcist (1973) (voice only)
Thieves (1977)
The Concorde: Airport '79 (1979)
Echoes (1983)
That would eliminate her according to enty's hints.
I've been on the KK train from the beginning, although I agree with whoever it was (Twisted?) who said that so many old-time actresses started to look butch to them as they sorted through gobzoodles of pics. Anyway, yes, I think it's Kay Kendall, and you know what? I do think her whole family knew.
ReplyDeleteJusshopn posted a link to a paper on KK through the University of Glasgow that proved quite fascinating. In it were references to her flat-chested bosom, kangaroo legs, her height, angular features, too-big feet, physical awkwardness, a rebel against the establishment, lanky, etc. Kay was a comedic actress, someone comfortable with the spotlight even if self-conscious about her appearance. If I were a man posing to be a woman, a man with an outlandish sense of humor and a big personality, one thing I would definitely do to "hide" or disguise the fact that I don't look quite as womanly as I should would be to draw attention to it in a self-deprecating kind of way that allows people to notice the discrepancies but also gives them an explanation for it, to ward off inquiries that come too close. It's a wonderful distraction technique.
She rejects the current fashion of extremely low cut dresses. She wears turned up collars, pushed or rolled up sleeves, prefers simple clothing over frou-frou. The structured, tailored clothing would give shape and definition where before there was little. It's one of the tricks of the trade.
"Despite...publicity photos where she looks ill at ease in a skimpy costume..."
People keep saying KK's life is well documented. All I have to say is that there are ways to provide information to the public to make it seem like the person's life is an open book... but it really isn't all that revealing at all. It happens all the time. Image is something we are making an art form these days. Marketing. Branding. Just sayin'...
One last thing: I don't think Merrill could be Timmy, if his birth year is correct on IMDB. That would make him 53 at the time that Kendall died in 1959, and while I think that KK looks older than 33 in photos taken in the year that she died, I don't think she looks 53.
I though KK won a Golden Globe for Les Girls, not an AA? It looked to me like most of her films were UK productions. Do we know if she ever lived in Hollywood?
ReplyDeleteSleuth, it doesn't really make sense to try and discount what EL has posted. By rewriting the blind item, you're just trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. Besides, as others have pointed out, MM doesn't qualify on more than one count.
ReplyDeleteOh, you're right - it was a Golden Globe, but she wouldn't have won that either if the film was made in England.
ReplyDeleteBut Visman - I think that Shimmy OUTLIVING Timmy is not the issue - I think Shimmy OUTWORKING him is the issue. Think about it. Maybe Shimmy just faded away and didn't fake her death as some people think. It's possible that after a while, family or whomever may have been in on the secret may have realized there has been no death so they concocted one. It's not hard to report a death to the papers. But it WOULD be impossible for Shimmy to still be working. I think that's why ENT is saying Shimmy's death date is not important.
ReplyDeleteI still think the fact that enty never names "academy award" leaves an opening for it to be a Golden Globe. I'm not sure who I think it is, but it's been very interesting!
ReplyDeleteAnd thanks enty for the daily hints!!
ts:
ReplyDeleteYes, it appears that Les Girls was a US production (though I don't knwo where it was filmed). It looks like her other films were all UK, though. Can we determine when, if ever, she was in Hollywood? That might yield some fruitful information.
I think we have to accept that the clue is not 100 percent accurate. For example, Ent says Timmy worked the stage as Shimmy before Shimmy started filming for "almost 2 years." Have any of our candidates met this criterion, which is pretty specific? It also says Shimmy's career went downhill after her win, yet the 2 actresses who died soon after their wins (KK and Brady) seemed like they were still getting good work when they died. I think KK was even nominated posthumously for another award.
I these clues aren't working out, then maybe others aren't exactly accurate either.
>>
ReplyDeleteLATimes -
July 3, 1938
"They Didn't Laugh"
By Lupton Wilkinson
This is an interview with AB. Completed after AB finish "Good-bye Broadway" which was apparently a tough shoot.
>>
Ed, that is very, very interesting! Alice Brady is definitely in the running in my mind as well.
Kay Kendall
~or~
Alice Brady
I'm still thinking it's Gloria Grahame (or maybe Claire Trevor), but it would help a lot if we knew whether to discount any TV credits 'Shimmy' may have had after winning the award.
ReplyDeleteIf her family knew about it and wanted to cover this up, why would they collaborate with a biographer? On the other hand, if her family wanted to make money, why wouldn't they come out with the sensational truth? It just doesn't make sense.
ReplyDeleteQuite frankly, the more people know about something, the more likely it is to come out. Maybe ten people can keep a secret. Twenty? No way.
And marketing can make up the past, but it cannot make up the fact that Kay's grandmother and father were famous before Kay was born. You cannot attach a backstory to a family who'd been well-known with numerous social and business connections for decades. Somebody would have realized that a) They never had a daughter named Kay; b) They never had a daughter named Kay, but they did have a son you never see around anymore; or c) They had a daughter named Kay, but Kay just doesn't seem like the same person anymore.
Look at Merle Oberon--when she needed to create a false history for herself, she didn't attach herself to any existing family. She claimed to be an orphan born in far-off Tasmania. If Shimmy exists, she's going to have a similar backstory.
Come to think of it, Merle Oberon had skin problems and facial scars...
Operaghost, you're right, that was me who said they all looked butch after going through their photo's. And throw in some that aren't even in the mix, like Joan Crawford and Rosalind Russell. Yikes - those were manly women!
ReplyDeleteThe focus on where KK lived is silly. Thinking that Shimmy could be working years after Timmy died is also silly. Cherry picking what clues you want to believe are wrong is just ridiculous. This is de-constructing how blind items work.
OK, I really don't think it's Kay Kendall, and here's why:
ReplyDeleteI read an autobiography covering those years (might have been Noel Coward's or his companion's - it was a while ago I read it.)
The writer talked about Kendall being very ill - she was huddled in a fur coat in summer, with chills, and she was wondering what was wrong with her. It was leukemia, and she was dying. But Rex Harrison, who she was with at the time, wouldn't tell her, or let her doctors tell her. The author thought that was very wrong (so do I!) She died still not knowing, as far as the author recalled.
Too much first-person back story for a made-up death, I think...
Dimes, EL said that Timmy's female alter ego stopped acting shortly after winning the award, and when we saw several years of work on imdb after the award, then the guess was wrong. He already provided us with the answer with that post.
ReplyDeleteMerle Oberon was Anglo-Indian. I though her real back story had come out?
ReplyDeleteWow Ent - almost another hundred comments - I can't wait to see how many in total the Timmy BI gets....gotta be around 1500 now??
ReplyDeleteAll the guesses & comments have been incredible to read - I'm not guess this one, but you guys have all done some incredible work!
Regarding Alice Brady - when I was watching My Man Godfrey on youtube the other day, I noticed something odd. She was wearing a gown and her back was sort of exposed, and when they showed it, it looked pretty muscular. You see that these days in women who work out, but back then, women didn't have muscular backs. It just didn't seem to fit.
ReplyDeleteIf anyone watches it, please let us know where to find the scene so everyone can see what I'm talking about.
Oh, Merle Oberon's story has come out, tania, I was just kidding. She did have facial scars from both a car accident and cosmetic poisoning, bad enough to make lighting and make-up a real challenge. It goes to show you how many performers can match these clues.
ReplyDeleteI thought the original blind item had Shimmy's career winding down for three or four years after the award. So her list of films wouldn't stop cold.
twisted sister:
ReplyDeleteYou don't have to agree with my ideas, but please don't call them silly. Focusing on what we can be pretty sure of (award winner, dead, reveal unlikely to cause headaches for Ent, co-starred at some point with A-list never married, guessed correctly early on on several sites) has narrowed our list down considerably. I think it has been a fruitful approach.
Sleuth, you're right. My apologies!!
ReplyDeleteHow can it be Kay Kendall if she died in 1959 and Timmy/Shimmy died between 1980-1985?
ReplyDeleteTwisted, EL was kind of coy in the way he worded the hint about later work -
ReplyDeleteIt's easy to make up biographies, but you can't hide the fact that this actress who is a popular guess was in so many movies after her win.
It may just be splitting hairs, but he seemed to be confining the 'work' to movies.
I hope he just hurries up and reveals this already. My brain hurts!
Rachel, the fake actress had a fake death right after winning her award. Then Timmy went on to act as a male until he died sometime between 1980 - 1985.
ReplyDeleteDimes, but then he had another post that addressed this. Let me see if I can find it. Okay, here it is:
"Timmy the actress gave up acting very soon after winning the award, so when you look at IMDB and see an actress worked for many years after her win, the guess doesn't make any sense despite the fact that everything else fits."
I think that does answer the question, no?
ts:
ReplyDeleteNo worries! KK seems like a really interesting person, even if she is/isn't Shimmy. My mom has the Lilli Palmer autobiography from the 1970s (she was Rex's ex that he divorced to marry KK). This BI makes me want to read it and learn more!
jlb it already over 2000 posts so far
ReplyDeleteAlice Brady would have been around 90 in the 80s. Even if she fudged her age a bit, she acted as early as 1921 so she/he lived at least 60 years after that. Also, with her father in the business, she was probably in the public eye pretty early making such a change difficult if not impossible. I don't see how it can be her, at all.
ReplyDeleteTwisted sister, which scene was it in My Man Godfrey? I remember Alice Brady's character dressing kind of conservatively and matronly, while her daughters wore those great slinking 30s gowns.
ReplyDeleteHm, first Ent wrote "At that time there was no CGI, and makeup could only do so much. Timmy the award winning actress was having trouble finding work because of his condition and so he saw his career slowly work its way back down the ladder over the course of three or four years."
Then he clarified "Timmy the actress gave up acting very soon after winning the award"
Neither one of those statements necessarily means a death soon after the award. Shimmy could have faded from the public eye; she could have announced her retirement.
Sugaree, I can't remember. If I find some time later I'll take a look and see if I can find it.
ReplyDeleteRegarding his statements, I know it doesn't mean a death soon after the award, but I do think it means that when we see someone who worked ten years or more after the award, it's probably not her.
Sleuth, I hear you! I'm finding I not only want to read up on some of these actresses and Hollywood back in the day, I've added some of their movies to my queue. It's really sparked an interest in me.
You're probably right, Twisted. But since no one actually fits all the clues, it's a question of which one(s) you want to discount as being false!
ReplyDeleteRegarding Marie Dressler, she would have been over 100 in the 80s and she was overweight, not slight. I don't mean to be mean but after days of research can someone explain how you can think it is Dressler or Brady unless you think the clues are false in which case this is all a waste of time??
ReplyDeleteJembilly, what clues are false with regard to Dressler or Brady?
ReplyDeleteAlice Brady's back -
ReplyDeleteGo here:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=EwTKdzJKc4E&mode=related&search=
And watch it from about 2:05 on.
Alice Brady and Marie Dressler have lead actress credits dating back to silents in 1914.
ReplyDeleteBy the time they had a multi-year gap in their filmographies, they were both established and well-known actresses.
Thanks, Dimes. If that's what Jembilly is talking about, all I can say is the blind indicated this actress worked her way up and got better and better roles. Alice Brady is still as good of a fit as any of the other three Oscar winners who qualified. EL could come back and say she had to start over with the talkies. Or he could come back and say that it was Marie Dressler and Timmy wore padding.
ReplyDeleteJembilly, who do you think it is?
I watched that Youtube clip of My Man Godfrey with Alice Brady. Definitely is the Brady with the thin nose as opposed to the earlier Alice Brady.
ReplyDeleteVoice is definitely fake -- very shrill and dramatic (of course, actors in the 30s said their lines in a very dramatic way). That voice is suspect.
As well, the hips are very narrow, as it would be on a man. Her jaw is heavy. Of course, she is convincing as a woman, since no one knew of the alleged deception. So I am definitely reading into this probably too much. The resolution is too poor to see a scar.
Do we know if Timmy worked ONLY on stage or theater (after Shimmy left films) or did he ever do television work?
ReplyDeleteThanks, Twisted. I don't think her back looked particularly muscular, but man, I love that movie.
ReplyDeleteMy only issue with Alice Brady is what other awards did she pick up that same year? Didn't Ent say she kept winning award after award?
ReplyDeleteRight, but as others have pointed out there were a lot of other awards, such as the Photoplay award that this might be referencing.
ReplyDeleteIs anyone else watching old movies on TMC and spending all of their energy focusing on the female actresses? For those of you who want a good look at Judy Holliday, TMC is showing 3 of her movies tomorrow night (9/7/07).
ReplyDeleteTwisted - do you all think that Ent would be talking about the small awards to go along with, say, the Golden Globe or Oscar?? I actually took the multiple awards mention as the woman won the AA, the GG and others.
ReplyDeleteRex Harrison divorced Lilli Palmer to marry Kay Kendall in 1957. Wouldn't there be a record of the marriage, and could they really have gotten legally married if KK was actually a man?
ReplyDeleteGrace, My Man Godfrey is not the film that made Alice Brady win the Oscar, so you wouldn't necessarily see a scar there. Remember ENT said the give away scar was visible in Timm'y winning role.
ReplyDeleteAs far as I'm concerned, that extract from YouTube is pretty convincing regarding Alice Brady as Timmy. I still haven't been able have to check extracts from In Old Chicago though.
I still don't know if Alice Brady is Timmy, but I've been putting my money either on her or Josphine Hull for a while.
fabiloa thing- I've read somewhere in all this research that Rex & KK never actually married.
ReplyDeleteI'm not one to overthink things, but if Rex Harrison was gay- and Palmer was his beard, wouldn't that be a convenient reason to amicably split? To take care of a dying woman? Palmer went on to marry someone else. If my husband wanted to divorce me, to marry a dying woman, I don't think I'd be too happy. At the time they said they would remarry once KK died- but Palmer hooked up with someone else.
Janele, at first I thought the other awards were either Oscars or GG's but once someone mentioned Photoplay and other awards, I thought those might be the other awards. EL isn't clear about that.
ReplyDeleteNathalie, did you think her back looked muscular? Sugaree doesn't, so maybe I'm seeing things.
Twisted, her back defintely looked "manly" to me. But her voice is the main thing I found really odd. Once again, I don't know if she is indeed Timmy (too many conflicting details) but this extract is really intriguing.
ReplyDeleteKK's gravestone said "my wife" on it. I know that doesn't mean they were legally married but they thought of themselves as married.
ReplyDelete"Timmy the actress gave up acting very soon after winning the award, so when you look at IMDB and see an actress worked for many years after her win, the guess doesn't make any sense despite the fact that everything else fits."
-- I think this refers to Mercedes McCambridge.
I found this site, which lists the winners each year and the awards they won for the role. It's interesting - KK only has one win - and for some reason, Alice Brady isn't listed - but it's an interesting site nonetheless.
ReplyDeletehttp://theenvelope.latimes.com/extras/lostmind/comp/actress.htm
...and it's NOT Gloria Grahame....I know she's a Dimes fave ;)
ReplyDeletebut GG died in 1981 and had a film come out in 1981 (a cheesy horror flick about a haunted bordello) but GG didn't "fade away" or "give up acting" soon after her win if she was in a movie the same year as her death (a death which is also squarely in the cone of probability for Timmy's death year, if Timmy died between 1980--1985)
Meaning, Timmy may already have passed when Gloria was still making movies....
I think Dressler and Brady were too old. If the person died of AIDS in the 80s, it is likely he was born no earlier than the 20s or the 10s at the earliest. I ust can't see someone dying of an AIDS related illness much older than that.
ReplyDeleteI don't have a reasonable guess.
Okay, I've been reading and researching all over the bloody internets and this is my best guess:
ReplyDeleteTimmy: Arthur Blake
Shimmy: Alice Brady
Closeted A Actor: Cesar Romero.
As others have said, Arthur Blake was a renowned female impersonator. He died at age "70" in 1985. He was born in Altoona, PA and attended Pratt for textile design, then started doing impersonations in supper clubs starting in 1940.
http://www.queermusicheritage.us/drag-blake.html
You all know Alice Brady and have some great research on here about her that just adds fuel to the fire. Silent film star and the daughter of a studio owner? She acted in silent films until 1923. In 1933 she gets her first role in a talkie. She’s considered one of the rare women to make the transition from silents to talkies. http://silent-movies.com/Ladies/PBrady.html
At first the dates don’t add up, right? But as some of you have said, what if the “real” Alice Brady retires from films after 1923 or thereabouts. Arthur Blake’s date of birth would be about 1915 or so, making him 18 in 1933, when the "fake Alice" id "Shimmy" has her first talking role. Look at the pictures from her silent films vs her speaking roles and you’ll see she looks different. One website claims she had to stop wishing she could play the ingénue and work into the role of wacky sidekick because of her “odd” features. All the stuff about the change in her nose and her look...
She acts from 1933 until 1939, making a real show in 1935 in Metropolitan, with Cesar Romero, a closeted gay actor who never married.
She wins the oscar for supporting actress for In Old Chicago in 1938. Alice Brady’s statuette was swiped by an impostor who came onstage to accept the award on the absent actress’ behalf. It has never been recovered and the impostor could never be tracked down. Before the Academy could do justice and issue a copy of the statuette, Alice Brady passes away.
The real Arthur Blake starts his real fame in 1940 doing impersonations of famous stars, both men and women. He’s extremely well known and well regarded in his craft, being one of the only actors invited back to some big dealio show in England. He was in Cyrano de Bergerac.
Between the two of them, Arthur Blake and Alice Brady have over 100 film credits.
Now someone poke holes all through the story!!!
I don't think Timmy was a female impersonator, and I don't think he was "renowned" for anything. He sounds like a fairly anonymous bit player. I don't think Arthur Blake has anything to do with Timmy.
ReplyDeleteArthur Blake wasn't slight...til I saw his pic, I was rooting for u :)
ReplyDeleteDon't mix up his later photos where he certainly isn't slight with his earlier shots (like the Jayne Mansfield thing and a few others) where he's very young and kind of wispy. Then again, I'm 6'3" and everyone looks slight to me.
ReplyDeleteI just noticed something interesting on imdb.com. Alice Brady's StarMeter ranking is up 267% over last week. Kay Kendall's is up 250%, and Josephine Hull's is up 215%. Arthur Blake's has also gone up, by 58%. We have the power to alter statistics!
ReplyDeleteGood show, everyone!
okay, so i'm not a huge fan of the Alice Brady guess (although i think i was one of the first people to toss her into the ring) but you got to love this ad that's on sale over at ebay:
ReplyDeletehttp://cgi.ebay.com/1926-Tuxedo-Tobacco-In-A-Can-Ad-Alice-Brady_W0QQitemZ300002171498QQihZ020QQcategoryZ133QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem#ebayphotohosting
direpotatoe great research, I don't think anyone ever said anything about Arthur Blake.
ReplyDeleteDOES ANYONE THINK 'SCAR' COULD BE A CODE WORD FOR 'NOSE JOB," or would that be considered too misleading, even for a blind item?
ReplyDeleteSorry to use caps, but this is the 3rd time I ask this question so I wanted to be sure to get your attention & perhaps responses. ;)
That's a good question, Calla. If it were a nose job, though, Ent could have said "distinctive facial feature/mark," which would have been general enough to include nose jobs, moles, scars, lazy eye, etc. That way it would give us a hint but not be too obvious. "Scar" seems pretty specific, although it could include both scars from injuries (like a gash or other cut) and from acne/skin conditions. I have a feeling he really means a scar.
ReplyDeleteI never knew anything about any of these actresses when I first read the Timmy BI...but I just get a weird feeling about that Alice Brady woman. But I hope it's Kay Kendall. She was fabulous, and it would be even fabulous-er if it turned out she was a man in drag!
ReplyDeletesleuth...thanks. I figured it was a long shot. ;)
ReplyDeleteMore Alice Brady evidence:
ReplyDeleteMetropolitan, the Cesar Romero film, was also known as Diamond Horseshoe (the pic in the original ENT Timmy post).
"But as some of you have said, what if the “real” Alice Brady retires from films after 1923 or thereabouts."
ReplyDeleteShe retired from films, but not from acting. She was on Broadway every year from during the 20s--actually every year from 1911 to 1933. That tobacco ad is from 1926, right in the middle of her hiatus from movies.
I don't know why there's a gap in her film career, but it may have something to do with the movie industry moving from New York to L.A. during that time period. She may have been able to balance a career in film and on Broadway up until 1923, and then the studios picked up and moved to Hollywood.
She chose to stay in N.Y. until 1933. Why go back to films then? Well, in the early 30s, when talkies came in, the studios raided Broadway and offered stage-trained actors great salaries to come out to Hollywood. A lot of actors who had been happy on the stage picked up and moved because the offers were just so good.
Hundreds if not thousands of theater-goers were seeing Alice in action every year. Like other celebrities, she was profiled in magazines and did print advertisements such as the tobacco ad. I don't know much about her social life, but she probably went to parties and went to her son's school functions. With that in mind, exactly when was Timmy supposed to swoop in and make the switch?
Didn't someone from one of the other threads on this same board mention that "Life and Times of Timmy" may be a clue as to whether or not Timmy or Shimmy were on the covers of Time and Life magazines?? Well, not usre if anyone has mentioned this, but Kay Kendall was on Life Magazine and was featured in an article the following month in Time.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteJ Richards I was not on the Alice Brady train until I saw that ad. That looks like a man to me more so than any pic I have seen of Alice Brady yet. Good grief. If that's not our Timmy then I think there was more than one Shimmy that was out there.
ReplyDeleteWere actors forced into doing ads as part of a contract?
I think Ent should post a list of all the current day celebs who are speculated about as hermaphrodite, transgender, trans-sexual, and see what comes out
ReplyDeleteWell, Jamie Lee Curtis would be on the list. ;)
ReplyDeleteNot wishing to be rude, but AB's award would occur before television so how could she win an award that was popular with all the television viewers. Also 6'3" would certainly be a distinguishing character for an actress.
ReplyDeleteI said *I* was 6"3"! Not any of these folks!
ReplyDeleteI found this review of In Old Chicago a bit telling "The other actors get less dimensional parts but they do just fine in them as well. I’m surprised that Brady won an Oscar as Maggie, especially since the character doesn’t make much of a dent. Ameche’s earnest turn as Jack would have made more sense.
ReplyDeletePerhaps Brady got the Oscar because the movie gave her its big ending speech – a sappy one at that."
Didn't Ent say that Shimmy gave an amzing unique performance probably inspired by her newfound love (or something like that)??
It doesn't sound like this role.
OK guys, long-time lurker, first-time poster. I bought "Les Girls" and watched it. I am now applying for a job as the conductor on the Kay Kendall train. Here are my reasons:
ReplyDelete"Les Girls" is a movie about three roommates, starring the oft-mentioned, award-winning Kay Kendall.
I'm also convinced that because this was so easy (apparently) to pull off - that starting a foundation was also easy. The foundation doesn't have to see the person naked in order to accept money in their name! The whole biography seems like it could have been made up.
At the end of "Les Girls," there is a man wearing a sandwich board that reads "What is truth?" This ties in with the plot of the movie (Rashomon redux) and also ties in neatly with our mystery.
I'm not sayin'...just sayin'...
But I'm crazy - at one point I thought Anne Revere looked just like the Kenny Baker that played R2D2! He's 3'10" btw.
I can't help but notice how often Alice Brady swears a scarf or fur of some kind around her neck...
ReplyDelete>> think Ent should post a list of all the current day celebs who are speculated about as hermaphrodite, transgender, trans-sexual, and see what comes out >>
ReplyDeleteI am LOLling, because this just makes me feel really, really Midwestern. Until I started visiting the gossip sites, I had absolutely No Clue. :)
Calla, with regard to your question, is it possible that an earlier era nose job could have resulted in some scarring?
Shimmy is probably a hint in itself. Who was an award winning dancer? What about Eleanor Powell or Vera Ellen? Seems like there were some rumors about Vera Ellen.
ReplyDeleteVenus, Shimmy is the name one of the posters came up with. It's just a combination of 'she' and 'Timmy'.
ReplyDeleteJust to add a little mix to the game I always wondered about those Barrymore's....They had a lot going on in that family I just wonder Hmmmmmm ???????
ReplyDeleteI still can't obsessing over Vera-Ellen wrt to this blind item, but she doesn't have a major award. She has one Tony for her wartime service and a star on the Hollywood walk of fame, but everything else fits! Drives me crazy...
ReplyDeleteAlice Brady + Frank Morgan for A-list (at the time) lover
ReplyDelete1933 movie: Broadway to Hollywood
THEORY: could not be seen in public as an item because it was widely rumored he was gay therefore domino effect.
He remained single for his entire life.
What do you think?
Thanks for clearing shimmy up, so to speak. ;-)
ReplyDeleteI think Fran Morgan was married, with a child or am I looking at the wrong one maybe?
ReplyDeleteHi - long time lurker, first time poster but had to sign up and get involed in this BI (which is driving me and my friend crazy..)
ReplyDeleteAnyway, our list is currently down to the following, forgive me if these people have been discounted, 1500+ posts are hard to go through.
Mercedes McCambridge
Judy Holliday
Josephine Hull
Simone Signoret
Margaret Rutherford
Alice Brady
Kay Kendall
Edith Evans
And on the way out there list is:
Marie Dressler
Norma Shearer
Can anyone help us cross off anyone on this list? Also, I have to say that the work and researching alot of you have done
has been truly amazing - Thank you!
:)
OMG!! I saw Walter Merrill was a person someone guessed. I just looked him up and he is from Bangor, PA, my hometown!! I haven't read yet & I merely merely a lurker obsessed with this but let me tell u that if the place in the Northeast where the actor did not fit in was Bangor, I will totally buy it. its changing now as NYC city folks move in but back then, wow. I know plently of people who moved from this as they say "small minded conservative town" My husband's great grandmother is 93 and still kicking I need to find out if she knows this person!! Too bad my grandparents are no longer living! I called my mom but she never heard of him. this one really intrigues me.... pen argyl the town next door was home to Janes Manfield.
ReplyDeleteWell,direpotaoe:
ReplyDeleteYour discoveries have certainly verified my earlier suspicions that the bi might be about Alice Brady. I was just not able to come up with the "Timmy" for her. What made you decide to investigate Arthur Blake? Did I miss a post? Another tip-off, is that they share the same initals: A.B!
Version1.
ReplyDeleteShimmy: Marie Dressler
Timmy: William Powell
check this one, magnify it
http://i.imdb.com/Photos/Mptv/1154/0792_0794.jpg
Then compare with these here (pics like nr. 1, 12, 33)
http://images.google.de/imgres?imgurl=http://delivery.viewimages.com/xv/3309971.jpg%3Fv%3D1%26c%3DViewImages%26k%3D2%26d%3DFBFD2EE751F199B84967950BADF88B7CEC7C5022FB410D56&imgrefurl=http://www.viewimages.com/Search.aspx%3Fmid%3D3309971%26epmid%3D3%26partner%3DGoogle&h=297&w=228&sz=37&hl=de&start=34&um=1&tbnid=v6nhs7LAiwZmzM:&tbnh=135&tbnw=103&prev=/images%3Fq%3DWilliam%2BPowell%26start%3D20%26ndsp%3D20%26svnum%3D10%26um%3D1%26hl%3Dde%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:de:official%26sa%3DN
Version2.
Shimmy: Judy Holliday
Timmy: George Raft
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteHow do we even know that's her?
ReplyDeleteShit, sorry, it isn't! Mislabled on google images.
ReplyDeleteHowever, this *is* Edith Evans - http://members.fortunecity.com/noops132/dame_edith_evans.jpg - so it definitely can't be her.
ReplyDeleteI'd found Arthur Blake's obit a couple of days ago while skimming dead actors in 1985. I became really interested in tying it all together and have been reading more than I care to know about female impersonation!!
ReplyDeleteAlso, credit to Crayon earlier today for asking today, on this blog, "what about this guy?"
Before that Crayon post, I hadn't seen his name anywhere.
A big NO to Arthur Blake. No musicals on his resume.
ReplyDeleteI'll repeat my theory about Kay Kendall. She was a real girl, and a real actress, who was killed. Since she was the gravytrain for her family, her brother (or someone) suddenly had a career as a woman, even though his nose was different. But he's Kay Kendall, can sign checks and get married, just pretending to be her.
The charade was kept going for a few years, until it couldn't go any further, probably from threat of exposure. The family killed Kay, and the male actor went back to being himself.
found this on walter merril
ReplyDeleteA former song plugger and vaudeville performer, athletic Wally Merrill began his screen career doubling Antonio Moreno in a film produced near his adopted hometown of Miami, FL. The experience led to the juvenile lead in Down Upon the Suwannee River (1925) and other such roles, and he later appeared opposite Buster Keaton in the much revived Parlor, Bedroom and Bath (1931). By the mid-'30s, however, Merrill was playing unbilled bit roles. Hans J. Wollstein
getting unlisted bit parts would certainly make one want to do something else. and his "adopted" home town was probably much better for him. I cannot a picture. I am also going to research all the books I have on Bangor and see what I find.
Read the original BI again.
ReplyDeleteHe doesn't necessarily say that Timmy was in musicals as a man.
"Timmy worked often, but nothing more than a few lines here or there and spent a great deal of time in the "chorus" sections of musicals which were still fairly popular."
Chorus as a woman? Chorus as a man, completely uncredited and unknown by IMDB?
Can't rule it out.
To shoot a hole in my own theory though, this bothers me: Timmy would have had to be acting at least three years before getting his "first screen test as a woman." I can't figure when Arthur Blake would have assumed to be Alice Brady. If it's early, like 1920s, then Arthur Blake would be in his 80s or 90s when he dies in 1985. Too old to be from AIDS I would think... The timeline has me concerned.
They sure look alike though. And no matter who Timmy was, Shimmy has GOT to be AB.
George Raft - bornin NY, dancer, played opposite many who can be considered closeted A-listers, for ex. "souls at sea" opposite Gary Cooper, wich also died of Aids. It was a lead role and it was few years before the succes. He also had gonhorrea, wich untreated causes lots of skin problems and other pains wich could let you stop working. went to europe for work, did not do much or semnificative stuff while back.
ReplyDeleteHelped a lot of young HW nonames to become Stars. He turned down some roles they hat made others famous, wich you generally dont do without a reason.
Was in a train on the Topeka/Santa Fe railroad who came in to the premiere of a cecil de mille movie.
A lot fits. He even has the same nose as judy holliday in some profile photos.
Judy Holiday has manly, muscular hands and legs, dependong on the pictures we look at. She often wears wigs, like pictured here -look at the forehead and neck: ttp://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-9/840501/Hollidayjudy.JPG
Wich is necessary, since she must have a Timmy life too. Other haircuts are interesting because covering them with a hat, you see a manly cut around the neck.
And as i said before i like the idea of taking a "holiday" from being timmy.
The Superman/Clark Kent check: Both never played or were pictured together.
Of course we may have discarded her at some point. BUT - We named her before and one of them Shimmys must fit in the end. Damn were they good!
jrichards: That ad with Alice Brady is from 1926 - interesting year since there seems to be two Alice Brady noses -- one thick and bulbous and the other thin and pointy. The ad has the thin nose.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=37309174&postID=6407914233149038248&isPopup=true
(1). Mercedes McCambridge - won academy award in 1949, and best supporting actress nomination in 1956. I think Ent said that Shimmy stopped acting as a woman within a few years of winning his/her award. This is a seven year gap.
ReplyDelete(2) Judy Holliday - she was married and had a son
(3). Josephine Hull - married in 1910 to Henry Hull - other than that, she won her award in 1950, made one more film, and retired.
(4). Simone Signoret- won her award in 1959, had another oscar nomination in 1965.She appeared in othr films in Hollywood around 1965 also. I think she worked too long after winning the award.
(5).Margaret Rutherford - She was married from 1945-1972. She married the actor, Stringer Davis, and they often appeared together in films.
(6). Alice Brady - won her oscar in 1937, died on October 28, 1939, shortly after filming the movie "young Mr. Lincoln" with director John Ford.
(7). Kay Kendall - maternal grandmother was Marie Kendall, a music comedy star who was known for her vivacious personality and diction while singing. Her father was Terry Mc Carthy, a vaudevillian. Her brother Cavan didn't pass away until 1999. She won her Golden Globe in 1958. She died on September 6, 1959, soon after completing her last film, "Once More, With Feeling". She was married to Rex Harrison, and previous to her relationship with Harrison, she had a relationship with the second son of Charlie Chaplin.
(8).Edith Evans - still making movies as a woman in 1977, plus she was nominated for awards, but never won, not an oscar anyway.
(9). Marie Dressler - A robust full-bodied woman, not slight. Won Best Actress award in 1931, nominated again in 1932. She was in other films in 1933, and made the cover of the 1933 issue of Time magazine. Shortly after she was diagnosed with terminal cancer. her doctor told Louis B. Meyer, who cospired with her doctor to not tell her of her illness. To keep her home, Meyer told her not to travel on her vacation because he wanted to put her in a new film. Dressler was furious but complied.
(10). Norma Shearer - won her academy award in 1930. She was married twice, to Irving Thalberg (1927-1936), and Martin Arrouge' (1942 - 1983).
Everyone researching Timmy has neglected the fact that careers need momentum. If Timmy is Danny Kaye, it makes no sense, career wise, to make a name as Danny Kaye, take a break and play as a woman for a while, and then return to being Danny Kaye.
ReplyDeleteWe're going to find out: Timmy is virtually unknown, perhaps not even listed on IMDb.
Timmy as a female has a short career, with a couple of good movies and an award. A few more less good movies. And then, she disappears or dies.
P.S. Find the matching scars, I dare you. It's the only way.
Long time lurker first time poster. I went to my video store to rent Les Girls. The owner and I discussed Timmy and the the working list. He said to take Merceder McCambridge of the list because his brother and her son were best friends in school. She is not a man.
ReplyDeleteYou were right, Frank was married- urgh!
ReplyDeleteSo here is my next guess with FACTS backing it up.
Edward Everett Horton as A-list lover to Alice Brady (1934 THE GAY DIVORCE)
Theory: Domino effect- he would expose her, etc, etc.- so they would not go public with relationship
Quick Bio:
“along with his brother George he bought up property in the San Fernando Valley from the 1920's onward, eventually assembling Beleigh Acres, a 23-acre development where he lived with his mother (who passed away at age 102). His hobbies included antiques, and at the time of his death in 1970, he had a collection with an estimated value of a half million dollars.”
“He was identified almost entirely with comedic work.. and by the end of the twenties had starring roles in a string of comedic shorts. It was after the advent of sound, however, that he fully hit his stride on the big-screen. Horton's first talking feature was The Front Page (1931).”
“Horton never married, and shared a home later in life with his sister, Hannabelle Grant. He was hospitalized weeks before his death from cancer in September of 1970”
Our generation knows him from the 1960s cartoon Rocky & Bullwinkle. Horton was “the narrator of Fractured Fairy Tales, in which he was prominently billed in the opening credits of every episode.”
What do you think? If Alice is Shimmy could Edward be the A-list lover?
Why pick that guy over Cesar Romero?
ReplyDeleteEdward Everett Horton wasn't really an A-lister. He couldn't carry a movie all by himself with no other big stars. The A-lister for Alice is Cesar Romero. Not that the identity of the A-lister matters.
ReplyDeleteI'm still sticking to my McCambridge theory for now. Take a look at this picture of her. (I am hopelessly tech-illiterate, so if the address doesn't work, I apologize. I did a cut and paste.) I found this picture of her on google images. She has a clear vertical depression down her left cheek. It's in other pictures of her, too, but most visible here. It may be just the way her face was made, but it might look to Ent like a scar.
ReplyDeleteI still don't think she really was a man, but I still think she was the one Ent has in mind, even if the clue doesn't exactly match up time-wise.
www.cineartistes.com/index.php?page=images...
Is Danny Kaye a Timmy suspect? I must have missed that one.
ReplyDeleteKay Kendall compared her own mug to Danny Kaye.
I'm going with Alice Brady for Shimmy because I think we've pretty much eliminated everyone else.
ReplyDeleteTimmy is going to be harder, because I don't feel that "Timmy" had the same success as Shimmy. Timmy would be known more for his theater work, do you think?
Jusshopn, not really. Danny Kaye was a success all on his own. Timmy is going to be someone we've never heard of.
ReplyDeleteI'm with Ed -- I am all for Alice Brady. Although not everything matches up, it's as close as close can get.
ReplyDeleteNo matter who Timmy is, shimmy has to be Alice. AND it seems from the 1930s interviews that Alice's father knew about her deception, calling it a name change, not a gender change! Interesting how Alice never mentioned what her "stage name" was.
However... the clues lead me to believe that if not Alice, then someone from the early 50s. It's the television audience clue that leads me to think this.
dnny kaye was married to sylvia fine for over almost sixty years, and he had a daughter. I know he was supposed to be the homosexual lover of Sir Laurence Olivier while Olivier ws married to Vivien Leigh (which was the cause of her breakdown). Olivier's second wife, Joan Plowright, denied this rumor.
ReplyDeleteKaye died in 1987 from a heart attack following a case of hepatitis.
Did Ent ever mention if Timmy were married? I know the closeted A-list actor was never married.
Oh I forgot to mention that in those 1930s interviews, Brady admitted to faking her voice, as quoted from Ed above:
ReplyDelete...reporting says that for talkies Alice "invented an entirely new personality, with a high twittery voice instead of her own rich one."
I knew that voice was fake in My Man Godfrey!! Soooo obvious!!
Walter Merrill won an amusing role out at MGM yesterday. He has been signed for the part of the jealous husband who pursues Buster Keaton over roofs and fire escapes with a gun, in Parlor, Bedroom and Bath. Merrill has done outstanding work in such pictures as Jealous Husbands, The Bride, The Office Wife, and other productions. Before entering pictures, he had wide experience in stock. Edward Sedgwick is directing the new picture with an all-star cast that includes, besides Keaton, Charlotte Greenwood, Reginald Denny, Sally Eilers, Dorothy Christy, Jean Peers, Natalie Moorhead, Edward Brophy, and Cliff Edwards.
ReplyDelete....
wide experience in stock, those are plays correct....
Why not Romero? Because I came across this:
ReplyDelete“Romero, who never married despite proposing to at least one woman, was known to be gay, even during the more discreet standards of his generation.“
OK- if Romero asked one woman to – why not Alice? Why wouldn’t Alice accept if Romero asked?
I am trying to locate who he proposed to…
But in the meantime – Edward looks like a possible candidate.
Carla, they're not saying that Danny Kaye was the closeted A-lister, they're saying that Timmy is Danny Kaye. HUH?
ReplyDeleteugh...sorry...Danny Kaye was married to Sylvia Fine for almost fifty years.
ReplyDeleteGossip monger, the studio's came out with that pap all the time to give their stars a reputation that was palatable to mainstream America. Don't believe it.
ReplyDeleteAnd Horton wasn't an A-lister.
Sorry to confuse everyone. I had seen where someone, david i think, had posted about Timmy could not be Danny Kaye. That is why I posted my question about are we on Danny Kaye now.
ReplyDeleteI figured I had missed it in a thread but I don't think Danny Kaye was Timmy.
I get that and it is a fair question.
ReplyDeleteEL is tricky when he talks about what A-list is.
There have been other discussions on this site before that have debated what A-list really means.
i.e.: Jessica Alba: B/C-list actress but A-list name recognition- so how do you categorize her?
I am just saying…
I like Alice the best for Shimmy but I think we need to take the top 3 guesses for Shimmy and see which A-list lovers there are and in the end that will help us narrow down the field even more.
The unique part of the A-list lover is that he was remained single- that really gets rid of a lot of other A-list actors that were gay but married until death, etc..
Okay, Shimmy has to be one of the following. These are the only actresses who dropped out of films/or public life within a few years of their awards.
ReplyDelete#1 Kay Kendall
Pros: known for "vivacious personality"
Ent said that "What Timmy had going for him was a personality that wouldn't quit."
The timeline fits and Cesar Romero could be the A-lister he was in love with.
Major cons: marriage to Rex Harrison (unless Harrison was gay too?) and a very public family. The latter would be hard to fake.
#2 Marie Dressler
Pros: Died within a couple of years of her award.
Had a daughter who died in "infancy" which seems like something one would say to add credibility to being a woman, but something that people may not think to question out of sensitivity.
Was the first president of the Chorus Equity Association. Is "Chorus" a hint. It's in quotes.
Was on the cover of Time magazine. "Life and Times of Timmy" could be another clue.
Major cons: Pre-award seems to extensive to fit in with fit in with Ent's timeline. It could be faked, I guess, but wouldn't broadway gigs be verifiable? And her recordings from 1910 seem to be available in a library in CA?
Slight build. Timmy might have realized he needed to appear more matronly in his roles to get away with it and could have worn padding.
#3 Alice Brady
Pros: Timeline fits. A man accepted her Oscar. Sketchy bio info.
Cons: Father owned and operated the film company she started in (could the father have been a sugar daddy?).
"I like Alice the best for Shimmy but I think we need to take the top 3 guesses for Shimmy and see which A-list lovers there are and in the end that will help us narrow down the field even more."
ReplyDeleteIsn't this kind of reinventing the wheel though, and on top of that, pulling the name of an actor that is so not A-list that it would work against it being Alice Brady? This is confusing why we should overlook a true A-lister that acted with Alice (Cesar Romero) and pretend that EE Horton is A-list instead. I'm not seeing how that's helping.
C - you missed Marie Dressler, but that's okay.
C - never mind, you got Marie Dressler, you missed Josephine Hull.
ReplyDeleteTwisted Sister – let me clarify.
ReplyDeleteI am not saying we should completely throw out CR as the A-list lover. I believe we need to look at all the movies each of our 4 top Shimmies were in during that time they would have met up (A-list lover and Shimmy).
It has to be unique that the lover stayed single.
This could help us narrow the field to maybe 2 as opposed to 4 Shimmies.
This does not upset the balance of all the great work that has been done but rather puts a check on who could be Shimmy and clarifies it.
Twisted, you're right. I think I forgot about Hull because her first film was 14 years before she won the Oscar, which I thought was a little long based on Ent's time frame. Plus, she was more known for the stage than the movies. She did drop out of public life a few years after her award, though.
ReplyDeleteIf she's Shimmy, that would mean Timmy had to appear in a LOT of movies and I got the impression that he did more stage stuff, especially after he retired Shimmy.
Also, I don't see that her career in film progressed the way Ent describes it.
Anyway, thanks, Ent! This BI rivals MV. Maybe even better. I am learning about so many old movies and actresses. Does anyone know of any good books on the Old Hollywood days?
ReplyDeleteHi, i´m back again. I just followed one of my previous findings since i did not receive any comments or help on that guess.
ReplyDeleteThis is my updated guess:
Shimmy: hattie mcdaniel
Won big, worked a little.
In this pic, even small, you see the shadows of a mens beard. Magnifying helps here.
Appeared in Zenobia against at the time A-lister Harry Langdon (as opposite to Oliver Hardy instead of Stan Laurel). This would be the reason for not being listed at the
Blockbuster. Also been in Saratoga opposite Clark Gable.
http://images.google.de/imgres?imgurl=http://www.mattszabo.com/Hattie%2520McDaniel-thumb.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.mattszabo.com/2006/03/george_clooney_wins_sanctimoni.html&h=210&w
=239&sz=7&hl=de&start=2&um=1&tbnid=QWck9XDvXxZJaM:&tbnh=96&tbnw=109&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dhattie%2Bmcdaniel%26svnum%3D10%26um%3D1%26hl%3Dde%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:d
e:official%26sa%3DN
Timmy: Stepin Fetchit
Talented, inteligent, first black millionaire actor, the gaps fit. Also would explain why somebody does work in choruses, while other white people, would get a lot of parts - in
that times movies were released at high frequences. And as vaudeville he would pull that of easily. No background thoroughly checked on black actors.
Plus he was put under pressure for the roles he played and the way he portrayed the black people. So taking a few years off would help.
The skin condition is stated here:
http://www.radiogoldindex.com/cgi-local/p3.cgi?ArtistName=Fairchild+and+His+Orchestra,+Cookie&ArtistNumber=06944
Read article 39852 Where you find: Guest Humphrey Bogart is hired as the baby's bodyguard. Bogie comments that Hattie, "looks like Stepin Fetchit with the mumps!"
About Topeka: there was a reference " from Topeka to Harlem" but i didnt find it again.
About the Timmy: There is a Theodore in his real name wich could be one possibility.
The second is, quote:While some believe that his stage name is a contraction of "step and fetch it", implying a servile persona (the so-called "Tom") that is synonymous with
degrading racial stereotypes in popular entertainment in the 19th century and the first half of the 20th century. The Tommy could became Timmy at a point.
This would change history: denzel the second man, halle the first woman to win the oscar.
Also this would be interesting to know who was JJ wife, because its possible that she was black too. There were some heavy racial issues there back then.
Also, re: Hull. The only lead role she had before Harvey was Arsenic and Old Lace. Her co-star was Cary Grant, who was married several times.
ReplyDelete